Flat Earth/Heliocentrism

[Siggie]

Re: I am an Azeri and GAY. Not sure if feminine or masculine.

Semantics again? Yes, that's what Einstein's theory implied. However, I don't agree with it.

Of course you don't. I can't resist this opportunity...

Please explain to the rest of us dummies, how it is that Einstein's TSR is wrong? In other words... correct or at least point out the flaws that make you reject the entire theory.

[KanadaHye]

Re: I am an Azeri and GAY. Not sure if feminine or masculine.

You're playing games of semantics (and being rather condescending). Earth's mass distorts spacetime and that distortion of spacetime is gravity.

Semantics again? Yes, that's what Einstein's theory implied. However, I don't agree with it.

[Siggie]

Re: I am an Azeri and GAY. Not sure if feminine or masculine.

For the Earth to be orbiting the Sun, the Sun would have to be stationary relative to the Earth's orbit and it isn't. Perhaps pictures will help.

http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/barycenter/

Speaking of not making sense.... how the hell can Earth's gravity affect spacetime? Do you even understand the difference between mass and gravity?

You're playing games (and being rather condescending)... I used "gravity" instead of "mass" when explaining the same thing for the second time! Oh noes! Clearly that means I have no idea wtf I'm talking about! Duh! Nevermind that the rest of my post was correct and did illustrate a pretty accurate grasp of this in preceding posts.

Earth's mass distorts spacetime and that distortion of spacetime is gravity.

Believe me, I understand how it works. I state it plainly for the sake of simplicity (it is misleading to run around telling people "you're dumb if you think the Earth orbits the Sun... Do you even understand what gravity is?") and to make it accessible to all. Yes, the Sun moves too because all the other nearby mass pulls too. It's somewhat the same thing as the Earth and the moon. The Earth wobbles a bit and moves in a similar way, pulled by the moon's gravity. However, it's being incredibly nick picky and misleading to tell someone (I don't mean me) they're wrong if they say the moon is Earth's satellite or that the moon orbits the Earth and then not offer a clarification of what you mean by that. When you do that, it communicates rather obviously that your interest here is in "one uppance" and not in mutually beneficial dialogue or education.

[KanadaHye]

Re: I am an Azeri and GAY. Not sure if feminine or masculine.

Yes, that's why it doesn't make sense what he said about both the Sun and Earth orbiting each other. The Sun sufficiently warps spacetime that the other planets are always "falling towards it" (thus orbiting).

Wasn't it last month that NASA obtained evidence of the curvature of spacetime caused by Earth's gravity, thus supporting relativity. Not that it was in doubt... it's the only thing that fits with the laws we've observed and it's been supported by new observation previously (just a step removed).

For the Earth to be orbiting the Sun, the Sun would have to be stationary relative to the Earth's orbit and it isn't. Perhaps pictures will help.

http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/barycenter/

Speaking of not making sense.... how the hell can Earth's gravity affect spacetime? Do you even understand the difference between mass and gravity?

[Siggie]

Re: I am an Azeri and GAY. Not sure if feminine or masculine.

Most people don't think. They didn't in the past, they don't in the present, they won't in the future. So it would never occur to them to even start thinking about the shape of the earth, far less come to a belief that it is flat or round.

Until some people in the most intelligent part of the world started to look around, free from the blinkers of religion, science had no idea about geology or earth sciences. People didn't know how mountains were formed, how land was built up and worn down over millions of years, how landscapes were formed by volcanic action, or by glaciation. But it was far worse than that. The evidence was there in front of their eyes - all they had to do was look and wonder why, but NONE of them did! Not once over thousands of years - thousands of millions of humans going through their entire lives looking at the world but not really seeing it (and they were humans living mostly, so modern dogma would say, far "closer to nature" than we do - proof that mere proximity to a thing does not lead to an understanding of that thing). They must have seen nothing because it never occured to them to think about the things that surrounded them. The blind ignorance of the human race is astonishing.

Good point. Did you know "they" also lost the first (two?) dinosaur bone(s) discovered? They didn't think anything of it.

By the way I didn't want to rain on your parade as that was a pretty good post but post Einstein scientists wouldn't really refer to it as a "gravitational pull" or "force" either as the curved-space-time theory that Einstein proposed to explain things is a much better (and testable) explanation of how gravity works than this magical Newtonian "pull" force.

But still, I will have that tequilla shot

Yes, that's why it doesn't make sense what he said about both the Sun and Earth orbiting each other. The Sun sufficiently warps spacetime that the other planets are always "falling towards it" (thus orbiting).

Wasn't it last month that NASA obtained evidence of the curvature of spacetime caused by Earth's gravity, thus supporting relativity. Not that it was in doubt... it's the only thing that fits with the laws we've observed and it's been supported by new observation previously (just a step removed).

[KanadaHye]

Re: I am an Azeri and GAY. Not sure if feminine or masculine.

Most people don't think. They didn't in the past, they don't in the present, they won't in the future. So it would never occur to them to even start thinking about the shape of the earth, far less come to a belief that it is flat or round.

Until some people in the most intelligent part of the world started to look around, free from the blinkers of religion, science had no idea about geology or earth sciences. People didn't know how mountains were formed, how land was built up and worn down over millions of years, how landscapes were formed by volcanic action, or by glaciation. But it was far worse than that. The evidence was there in front of their eyes - all they had to do was look and wonder why, but NONE of them did! Not once over thousands of years - thousands of millions of humans going through their entire lives looking at the world but not really seeing it (and they were humans living mostly, so modern dogma would say, far "closer to nature" than we do - proof that mere proximity to a thing does not lead to an understanding of that thing). They must have seen nothing because it never occured to them to think about the things that surrounded them. The blind ignorance of the human race is astonishing.

You mean until it was narrated to them on the discovery channel?!?!

[Sip]

Re: I am an Azeri and GAY. Not sure if feminine or masculine.

I'm saying someone with 20/21st century science education would never, ever claim the Earth revolves around the Sun. The Sun and the Earth orbit each other. It's just that the Earth's gravitational pull compared to the Sun is so small that it has virtually no effect on the motion of the Sun. The Sun might be at the centre of the solar system but it isn't the centre. The gravitational forces of each planet affect each other so at any given time, the centre of the solar system is changing.

By the way I didn't want to rain on your parade as that was a pretty good post but post Einstein scientists wouldn't really refer to it as a "gravitational pull" or "force" either as the curved-space-time theory that Einstein proposed to explain things is a much better (and testable) explanation of how gravity works than this magical Newtonian "pull" force.

But still, I will have that tequilla shot

[bell-the-cat]

Re: I am an Azeri and GAY. Not sure if feminine or masculine.

Do you believe facts are determined by the number of people who think it fact? If the answer to this question is 'no' then stop it with the contrarian disagreement for the sake of disagreeing with something and distracting from the point.

Most people don't think. They didn't in the past, they don't in the present, they won't in the future. So it would never occur to them to even start thinking about the shape of the earth, far less come to a belief that it is flat or round.

Until some people in the most intelligent part of the world started to look around, free from the blinkers of religion, science had no idea about geology or earth sciences. People didn't know how mountains were formed, how land was built up and worn down over millions of years, how landscapes were formed by volcanic action, or by glaciation. But it was far worse than that. The evidence was there in front of their eyes - all they had to do was look and wonder why, but NONE of them did! Not once over thousands of years - thousands of millions of humans going through their entire lives looking at the world but not really seeing it (and they were humans living mostly, so modern dogma would say, far "closer to nature" than we do - proof that mere proximity to a thing does not lead to an understanding of that thing). They must have seen nothing because it never occured to them to think about the things that surrounded them. The blind ignorance of the human race is astonishing.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: I am an Azeri and GAY. Not sure if feminine or masculine.

History reveals the Church never taught a flat Earth and the bible doesn't teach a flat Earth.

What does this "history reveal" say about what the Church and the Bible DID teach about the shape of the Earth? They taught nothing at all about it, I expect.

[Siggie]

Re: I am an Azeri and GAY. Not sure if feminine or masculine.

I'm saying someone with 20/21st century science education would never, ever claim the Earth revolves around the Sun. The Sun and the Earth orbit each other. It's just that the Earth's gravitational pull compared to the Sun is so small that it has virtually no effect on the motion of the Sun. The Sun might be at the centre of the solar system but it isn't the centre. The gravitational forces of each planet affect each other so at any given time, the centre of the solar system is changing.

Yes, everything exerts gravitational pull proportional to its mass on everything else. In the end, the Earth does orbit the sun.
What shape is the solar system? It's not something you can map and say "why it's a circle, so there's the geometric center there." It doesn't make sense to refer to it that way.