The Ottomans

[Artandsky]

Re: The Ottomans

This thread is about Ottoman and Armenian history. My point is that today the Ottomans are seen as perpetrators of genocide and the destroyers of Armenian civilization in Anatolia.
But 200 or 300 years ago Armenians might have seen the Ottomans differently. Not necessarily positively, but also not as negatively as today. Remember at the peak of their power the Ottomans were landing troops on the Italian peninsula. It is even possible that some Armenians in the empire were proud of the Ottomans. Human beings become attracted to those who are powerful or successful
As for today, yes Turkey has been violating rights of ethnic communities. And Tibet deserves to have real autonomy. But this thread is about history.

History is a relative thing! Usually written by winers, twisted in a way to make it attractive and convenient for the present day, darkest/ugliest parts are usually omitted.

What you say is possible. The same thing could be said about Armenians of Russia, USA, France etc.
so what is the point of this “historical investigation”? Would it be like “we could be still together if 1915 wouldn't happened?

These are useless talks IMO. It is simply irrelevant in current Armenian/Turk relation. We could talk about similar subject with those nations I've mentioned above, but not with yours. First thing we have to resolve Q of 1915 and occupied territories.

[Anonymouse]

Re: The Ottomans

This thread is about Ottoman and Armenian history. My point is that today the Ottomans are seen as perpetrators of genocide and the destroyers of Armenian civilization in Anatolia.
But 200 or 300 years ago Armenians might have seen the Ottomans differently. Not necessarily positively, but also not as negatively as today. Remember at the peak of their power the Ottomans were landing troops on the Italian peninsula. It is even possible that some Armenians in the empire were proud of the Ottomans. Human beings become attracted to those who are powerful or successful
As for today, yes Turkey has been violating rights of ethnic communities. And Tibet deserves to have real autonomy. But this thread is about history.

Whether or not Armenians were on good terms with Turks prior to the late 19th and early 20th century is irrelevant.

To the extent that it is part of history - and in order to understand the past, we will have to examine these relations - then we could understand the relevance of good relations among the two. As a purely contextual matter, relative only to that time frame, it's worth noting that Armenians had good relations with Turks. However, history is not static and it is not a point in time. It is always in flux and changing.

If we further delve into historical inquiries, one cannot help but ask, "What happened to this relationship?" The answer to this question leads us to the present situation.

To the extent that this relationship went down hill when Turks started to badger the Armenian population, it is irrelevant. In the context of things, the good relations of ages past pale in comparison to the treatment Armenians received in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

[Virgil]

Re: The Ottomans

To the extent that this relationship went down hill when Turks started to badger the Armenian population, it is irrelevant.

Just to clarify something, "badger" is a very kind word, more like sadistically torture. I don't know if you have read General Andranik's biography, but in it you find out why he fought for Armenians. Example, they use to take Armenian children, tie them to trees and peal their skin for fun.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

Whether or not Armenians were on good terms with Turks prior to the late 19th and early 20th century is irrelevant.

To the extent that it is part of history - and in order to understand the past, we will have to examine these relations - then we could understand the relevance of good relations among the two. As a purely contextual matter, relative only to that time frame, it's worth noting that Armenians had good relations with Turks. However, history is not static and it is not a point in time. It is always in flux and changing.

If we further delve into historical inquiries, one cannot help but ask, "What happened to this relationship?" The answer to this question leads us to the present situation.

To the extent that this relationship went down hill when Turks started to badger the Armenian population, it is irrelevant. In the context of things, the good relations of ages past pale in comparison to the treatment Armenians received in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

The relationship say in the 18th century was probably far from ideal , but still probably through wealthy Armenians in Istanbul , Armenians in the interior provinces could have some of their grievances addressed by the Sultan.

An important historical question (which also has a bearing into the 20th century ): why did Armenians allow themselves to become a conquered nation? how did infighting contribute to the collapse of the Armenian state in 1375?

The Ottomans might have been cruel unless you allowed them to control your destiny. If cruelty is bad, submission to cruelty is not something to be proud of

[Anonymouse]

Re: The Ottomans

The relationship say in the 18th century was probably far from ideal , but still probably through wealthy Armenians in Istanbul , Armenians in the interior provinces could have some of their grievances addressed by the Sultan.

An important historical question (which also has a bearing into the 20th century ): why did Armenians allow themselves to become a conquered nation? how did infighting contribute to the collapse of the Armenian state in 1375?

I have long posed and contemplated that question.

The Ottomans might have been cruel unless you allowed them to control your destiny. If cruelty is bad, submission to cruelty is not something to be proud of

Precisely, which is why now with Azeris Armenians will mend history.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

I have long posed and contemplated that question.



Precisely, which is why now with Azeris Armenians will mend history.

Tatars terrorized Russia for hundreds of years but eventually Russians organized themselves and counterattacked, taking the Tatar khanates in Kazan, Astrakhan and Crimea, putting an end to the slavery. They did it by themselves without any outside help.

It shows that if people really want to end foreign rule, they can, provided they have faith and are prepared to sacrifice themselves

[Anonymouse]

Re: The Ottomans

Tatars terrorized Russia for hundreds of years but eventually Russians organized themselves and counterattacked, taking the Tatar khanates in Kazan, Astrakhan and Crimea, putting an end to the slavery. They did it by themselves without any outside help.

It shows that if people really want to end foreign rule, they can, provided they have faith and are prepared to sacrifice themselves

Which is why now Armenians have mended history with the Azeris. Isn't it amazing what one can do if one puts his or her mind to it?

Marvelous.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

Historians and observers in general to this day are puzzled how a tribe of desert herdsmen called the Othmans ended up creating one of the mightiest empires of the world. When the Othman tribe of perhaps 30,000 men set up their tents on the shores of the Marmara Sea in the 14th century, most of them had never been to a seashore (never mind seen a sea-going vessel) in their lives. Yet 100 years later their warships were besieging Constantinople. And 100 years after that, the Ottoman fleet was transporting soldiers and mercenaries to the Italian peninsula, with the aim of taking Rome

[Anonymouse]

Re: The Ottomans

Historians and observers in general to this day are puzzled how a tribe of desert herdsmen called the Othmans ended up creating one of the mightiest empires of the world.

Easy. You become the most ruthless and merciless, essentially pillaging every form of life on your way which would prompt a Victor Hugo to state, "The Turk has trodden this land, all is in Ruins."

[Armenian]

Re: The Ottomans

Of all of Armenia's neighbors and occupying powers, the Ottomans have probably had the greatest effect on Armenian . Even now, on a given day, thousands of Armenians all over the world will tell each other 14th century Turkish folk philospher/homorist Nasreddin Hodja's wisecrack stories

It's the other way around, idiot. Turks adopted Anatolian (Greek, Armenian, Assyrian and Kurdish), Arabic and Persian mentalities, psychologies, ways of life, etc... The proof of this is in your architecture, your literature, your religion, your script, your music, your genetics, your cuisine, your art, your land, etc...

When the Othman tribe of perhaps 30,000 men set up their tents on the shores of the Marmara Sea in the 14th century, most of them had never been to a seashore (never mind seen a sea-going vessel) in their lives. Yet 100 years later their warships were besieging Constantinople. And 100 years after that, the Ottoman fleet was transporting soldiers and mercenaries to the Italian peninsula, with the aim of taking Rome

You can thank the multitudes of Byzantines that had become Ottomanized and scores of European mercenaries that fought for the Sultan.

Why did the Ottomans rise? To fill the vacuum left by the defeated Franks (Crusaders), the devastated Arabs (at the hands of the Franks), the militarily non-existent Persians, and the severely weakened Seljuks, Byzantines and Armenians (as a result of regional turmoil).... By the late middle ages, there was a severe geopolitical vacuum in the Near East and Asia Minor as a result of hundreds of years of constant battles between Europeans, Byzantines, Persians, Arabs and Armenians. This lead to the Ottoman rise. Talk about being in the right place at the right time. Historically, the sun has shined out your assess.

Even now, on a given day, thousands of Armenians all over the world will tell each other 14th century Turkish folk philospher/homorist Nasreddin Hodja's wisecrack stories

Who's "Nasreddin Hodja"?