Caucasian Albania

[lampron]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Turkic tribes of Central Asia were nomadic and warlike barbarians similar to the Mongols. Contrarily to the Arabs who wanted to spread the "truth" of Islam by converting other populations, and in search of better pastoral lands for their horses, the Turks migrated by waging wars against indigenous populations.


This is the true origin of current Azerbaijan...

you seem to use Tatars and Turks interchangeably but they are not always the same. 'Turks' is also a generic word describing many nationalities in the Ottoman empire not only originally from Central Asia and Mongolia, but those who converted to Islam and then started speaking a dialect of Turkish

Aliyev, the 'Azeri' dictator recently claimed the whole of Armenia and the region of Surmalu which is now in Turkey. The region around Kars had many Tatars before Mustafa Kemal captured it from Armenia

Both 'Turks' and Tatars originally were nomadic herdsmen you are correct. But after centuries of co-existence with civilizations in Anatolia and the Caucasus they have learned many of the skills and trades of the orginal populations.

As I mentioned in another thread many Turkish and 'Azeri' businessmen have become successful. The Moscow-based restaurant chain Shesh-Besh is said to belong to 'Azeri' businessmen.

[Davo88]

Re: Caucasian Albania

The Udi

Though Norwegian fascists and a number of mentally ill Norwegians think the Udi are actually Norwegian.

It is as blasphemous as the claims made by certain Azeri sources that Karabakh Armenians are of Albanian origin, and since Azerbaijan allegedly has Albanian ancestry, Karabakh should be part of Azerbaijan.

[Davo88]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Turkic tribes of Central Asia were nomadic and warlike barbarians similar to the Mongols. Contrarily to the Arabs who wanted to spread the "truth" of Islam by converting other populations, and in search of better pastoral lands for their horses, the Turks migrated by waging wars against indigenous populations.

As the Chinese said :
"in search of water and pasture and have no walled cities or fixed dwellings, nor do they engage in any kind of agriculture ... in periods of crisis they take up arms and go off on plundering and marauding expeditions."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_migrations

This is the true origin of current Azerbaijan...

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Have any of the original Caucasian Albanians survived?

The Udi

Though Norwegian fascists and a number of mentally ill Norwegians think the Udi are actually Norwegian.

[lampron]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Perhaps it's true that some Tartars have Caucasian Albanian ancestry, but I believe some Armenians in Artsakh and Armenia do as well. However, to me, emphasizing their Albanian ancestry is like emphasizing that some of the Crusaders have Arab, Greek, or Turkish blood. It does not change the fact that Azerbaijan is an alien entity to the region compared to Armenia or Georgia.

as a political entity, yes Azerbaijan started its existence in 1918.

But many countries in Africa, the Middle East (UAE) did not exist in 1918 but they are sovereign states now with their own flags and nationalisms. pakistan did not exist.

As to the term "Tatars", there were the original Mongol-Tatars who came from Central Asia and Mongolia and went as far as Poland and also took Persia, Afghanistan,parts of India , invaded Anatolia and the Middle east.

In Russia today there is the tatarstan republic.

But today's 'Azeris', may or may not be related to them. 'Tatars' might have been a generic term for Shia Moslems who spoke a Turkish dialect. Who exactly were the 'caucasian Tatars', we may not know

[Davo88]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Perhaps it's true that some Tartars have Caucasian Albanian ancestry, but I believe some Armenians in Artsakh and Armenia do as well. However, to me, emphasizing their Albanian ancestry is like emphasizing that some of the Crusaders have Arab, Greek, or Turkish blood. It does not change the fact that Azerbaijan is an alien entity to the region compared to Armenia or Georgia.

[lampron]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Have any of the original Caucasian Albanians survived?
Probably some Caucasian Tatars (who after 1918 became the Azerbaijanis) have Caucasian Albanian ancestry

[Davo88]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Well said. Despite our "friendly" neighbours' attempts at being creative, nothing can erase the fact that our roots are in both Eastern and Western Armenia, and that theirs are in Central Asia.

SevSpitak that's a really nice video showing all those maps. Despite hundreds of years of foreign domination, those lands never really lost their true identity until the genocide happened. What is also impressive is that Armenia is never separated into Western and Eastern, or Ottoman and Persian/Russian, Armenia always stays 1.

[SevSpitak]

Re: Caucasian Albania

History is already biased enough at the academic level. With political influence, historical interpretation is nothing but arbitrary.

History is biased when there is no material to justify certain claims. Armenia has an AMPLE amount of material to justify its claims in Eastern Anatolia, and there is no bias required for this, even Turkish historians recognize the fact that they have built their republic on Greek & Armenian soil, and that up until 1915, those regions were inhabited by the indigenous people. Istanbul's majority population was Greek up until the population exchange after WWI, but this was a deal by the two governments, therefore, the government of Greece can only think of Constantinople as its past history. Eastern Anatolia was ~80% Armenian until 1915, and there was no deal with Armenians. Armenians were exiled and forced to leave behind everything they had built for 4100 years. You might find a few Seljuk/Ottoman/Turkish monuments in Eastern Anatolia, but go there for yourself, and look at its historical monuments. 99% are Armenian, and they are left to rot and perish. Except for the Akhtamar Cathedral, which was restored mostly due to European pressure, and honestly, half assed.

What you want is for us to simply forget about our entire history and move on. That's impossible. Imagine Bulgaria invades Turkey, and forcefully exiles you to the four corners of the world. Even in 100 years, will your children forget it? And your history in the region is ~800 years old. We're talking 4100.

These kind of things have happened many times in ancient history, but Turkey is among the only nation in the modern age to have done such a thing, and therefore, Armenians are among the rarest modern nations to have been through such a thing. And therefore, no one, especially biased/nationalist Turks, can truly understand what Eastern Anatolia/Western Armenia is for Armenians.

[SevSpitak]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Many ethnic Armenian nationalists seem to be proud of their "pure" genetic stock. As if the collective memory and culture of ancient Armenians is genetically passed down rather than socially learned.

Azerbaijan like Turkey has followed the 20th paradigm where every emerging nation-state must have historical legitimacy. I do not doubt the current Armenian nation's historical bond with ancient Armenians. It is much less contrived than Turkish identity.

However, this does make the Armenian nation-state any more legitimate than Turkey or Azerbaijan. Does Israel have territorial rights to Palestine just because of historical claims?

History is already biased enough at the academic level. With political influence, historical interpretation is nothing but arbitrary.

Armenia doesn't have rights to Iranian Azerbaijan, nor Iraq, nor Beirut, nor Judea, nor Cappadocia, nor Baku even though those were part of Armenia once during its history, and ever since there have been Armenians living there.

But in a region where the heritage, culture, history, and up until 95 years ago, the majority of its population is/was Armenian, and its people were ethnically cleansed against their own will during the modern age, through means such as genocide, then Armenian does have territorial rights. Take a look at all maps prior to 1915.* They all indicate Armenia in/around Van, Mush, Erzurum, Erivan, Karabakh, Nakhichevan, etc. The only time in the entire history of humanity the region wasn't "Armenia/Urartu" was starting from 1915, a tiny 95 years in its 4100 year old history, due to an illegal ethnic cleansing. Yes Armenia does have the right for territorial claims.

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rws5YxPc16Y