Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Let me get this straight- you are upset that Russia bought the very factory it paid to build during the soviet years? It really is as funy as it sounds but what is even funnier is that you are complaining about it.

Do you expect giving it to Russia as a gift? Most of factories in former USSR countries are still that, or even much, older and they are operating. Do they worth a department store fate?

[Armanen]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Strategically Russia is Armenia's lifeline. The issues which gegev has raised are important and were not always done with Armenia coming out better, but in comparison to the alternative, basically Armenia acting like georgia in its relations with Russia, would equal national suicide for us.

If the day comes that Russia no longer deems Armenia as an important country to have in its orbit, and Armenia is still not economically/militarily powerful in regards to turkey, we are f*cked.

[Hye]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

hi to all Im little late and the discussion has evlolved a lot let me start

"Armenia didn’t get the low gas price (per tcm) she was expecting from Russia in return for her loyalty. "
well let's see Armenia still enjoys below market price Gas from Russia and in the time this deal was negotiated Armenia had NO ulternative Gas supplyer now we have Iran and let's go and see if Iran would supply us a cheaper Gas than the russians. just because Russian gas got more expensive doesn't mean this is a treason or a reason to change orientation everything in the world gets more expensive.

"Armenians are very unhappy and think that they were cheated on that “dept-to-equity” deal"
Can you give a source illustrating this deal and the exact price that those given assets to Russia?

"During the Presidential election fiasco Russia declared that the elections were free and fair, showing that they will support any leadership that is pro Kremlin regardless of whatever or whoever."
So did the international observers who also said the elections were mostly to international standards. Moreover don't let me started with the election leave it out of this. Moreover what are you expecting Russia to do to? support a person who is the pupet of some powers that Russia is strugling against them?

"- Russia objected to building a pipeline in Armenia to transport Iranian gas to Georgia and later on to Europe.
- Russia also put a limit on the diameter of the pipeline from Iran to Armenia. "
these two points are the same actually. By the way how did Russia atchieve this but buying and funding the pipeline itself. Moreover I said something in my previouse post I donno if you remember. The fact of the matter is Armenia to survive physically needs strong Russia in the region that competes with Turkey and the most important source of power Russia has is the fact it is the major Gas supplyer to Europe if in a way Europe finds ulternative ways to get Gas Russia will get weaker and our security will be more in danger.

"- Russia closed its borders with Georgia which also meant not allowing goods to reach Armenia regardless of all the pleas of Armenian Government to at least allow that, all was ignored by Russia as if they had joined the Turkish Azeri blockade. Some Armenian politicians connected the reason to Russia punishing Armenia for sending troops to Iraq. "
What did you expect during a war borders to remain open and Armenians transport their goods to Russia. Besides isn't Georgia part to blame in this? Wasn't this the fault of an idiot adventurist called michael Sahakashvilli? and by asking Armenia to change orientation we are asking our presidnet to be a Misha. Besides I can argue that Russia is reopening the border with Georgia to allow Armenians to use those roots this is a good step.

"- Russia is increasing her trade and relations with Turkey and has made oil deals. "
How is this anti Armenia move? You know what if Armenians just think more how to do good to Armenia instead of thinking how to do bad to Turkey we can be much better off by now.

"- Russia still has cooperation to certain degree with Azerbaijan in oil politics."
Russia will always do that and will never ever abandon Azerbaijan to keep it under it's control. What is better to have Aliev under Russias control like it is now or a ALiyevashvili out of control that will start a new war in karabakh and kill thausands of Armenians? regardless who will win the war.

"- Russian–US relations are slowly warming up as Russia continues to loose more influence in her old backyard (Orange revolution in Ukraine)."
how did you come up with this? And even amusing is the example you gave. ORAGE REVOLUTION IN UKRAINE? have you read the newspaper in the last 4 years? The leader of the Orange revolution Viktor Yushchenko got 5% of the presidential vontes yesterday and he is preparing his bags for a early retirement in his home in USA. Timushenk part of the Orange revolution but recently specially after 2008 war was a critique of Yushchenko she has bcome closer and closer to Russia she even brock a deal with russians during the Gas crisis in beginning of 2009 came second with 25% the first was pro Russia Yanikovich with 35% the contest remains between these two. Russia even was able to make USA cancel the anti missile shield in Europe. We can see slow steady rise of Russia nowadays but how strong and is it perminant or long? I don't see Russia as a gobal superpower like it was during soviets but in Caucasus Russia is and becoming a superpower.

Bottom line even if there are some bad points in our relationships these are no reason to even think about reorientation. We have strategic common intrets that have to do with our existance. taking negetive points and amplifying them are no good for us right now. As I have been saying we have no ulternative specially when no one has mentioned and ulternative till now all of you are saying this is bad that is bad no one is saying what shall we do. So reorienting our polacy is wrong not well thought adventurism that will bring us dustruction.

To all those who are saying russia isn't our ally we must reorient GIVE TRHE ULTENATIVE

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

You guys misunderstand my views.
You say we must dependent on Russia and Russia is the best choice from all other countries, fine.
I say Armenia must do all she can to become completely independent from other countries and that Armenia can achieve this independence while continuing to have good relations with Russia. I am not saying that Armenia should find another skirt to hide under. If pan-Turkism is your worry then I say with all confidence that even if the relations between Armenia and Russia deteriorates for some reason, Russia is not just going to sit down and do nothing when Turks invade Armenia (which they won’t) just because we are independent now and not as close to them. They have to make a move for their own national interests unless they side with the Turks and want them to expand in that area.
It is up to our leaders (their responsibility) to slowly move us towards Armenia’s complete sovereignty. We don't need to be as strong or as rich as Turkey to accomplish this.

[Parskahay]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

i cant say that russia is ally or foe but we need to feed from russia and iran as much as we can until we become completely independent from any country

and as history proven russia likes armenians more than turks

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

You guys misunderstand my views.
You say we must dependent on Russia and Russia is the best choice from all other countries, fine.
I say Armenia must do all she can to become completely independent from other countries and that Armenia can achieve this independence while continuing to have good relations with Russia. I am not saying that Armenia should find another skirt to hide under. If pan-Turkism is your worry then I say with all confidence that even if the relations between Armenia and Russia deteriorates for some reason, Russia is not just going to sit down and do nothing when Turks invade Armenia (which they won’t) just because we are independent now and not as close to them. They have to make a move for their own national interests unless they side with the Turks and want them to expand in that area.
It is up to our leaders (their responsibility) to slowly move us towards Armenia’s complete sovereignty. We don't need to be as strong or as rich as Turkey to accomplish this.

It is my intention, too. I agree!

2. Thou shalt not make for thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

[Hye]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

What Im saying Pan Turkism isn’t the only concern economic stability is also depanded on Russia everything is depended on Russia not because we chose but because we are obliged no one will be a servent of anyone by choice what we all are saying we don’t have any other choice we are independent as possible no one would make Armenia less dependant on Russia in the meantime not distroying Armenia. Russia isn’t our foe but is our ally right now and if Russia will see we are getting off orbit will destroy Armenia or harm Armenia with the same amount and maybe a little more. Look at Georgia for God sakes Does Georgia have the fear of Pan Turanism and yet soon we will see they have no choice but to bow before Russian demends a better example is Ukraine look at them Yushchenko the savier of Ukraine the democratic anti corruption i.e. US pupet is forced to early retirement for what? What did Ukraine gain from that so called revolution and political turmoil for 6 years nothing more economic hardship. This is called adventurism and WE DON’T NEED ANY ADVENTURISTS RIGHT NOW. We need realists. like it or not we are under Russian sphere of influence to a big extand but we have a small room of manuver and we are doing that. If we were indeed so dependant and 100% pupet of Russia as you present Armenia to be why didn’t we recognise South ossetia and Abkhazia how come we have troops in KOSOVO how come we have good relations with EU and NATO and USA can you imagine we had NATO excersies in Armenia can you imagine prior to the Georgian war NATO had excersises in Georgia and Armenia was represented. The situation isn’t that bad and horrible as you present it to be we are doing what we can and Armenia is playing a complementary policy as much as it could.

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

hi to all Im little late and the discussion has evlolved a lot let me start
.....
"Armenians are very unhappy and think that they were cheated on that “debt-to-equity” deal"
Can you give a source illustrating this deal and the exact price that those given assets to Russia?

Hi Hye!

These are some of the sources I used:

http://www.iasps.org/strategic/socor12.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Economy_of_Armenia#Takeover_of_Armenian_industrial_property_by_the_Russian_state_and_Russian_companies

[Haykakan]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

You guys misunderstand my views.
You say we must dependent on Russia and Russia is the best choice from all other countries, fine.
I say Armenia must do all she can to become completely independent from other countries and that Armenia can achieve this independence while continuing to have good relations with Russia. I am not saying that Armenia should find another skirt to hide under. If pan-Turkism is your worry then I say with all confidence that even if the relations between Armenia and Russia deteriorates for some reason, Russia is not just going to sit down and do nothing when Turks invade Armenia (which they won’t) just because we are independent now and not as close to them. They have to make a move for their own national interests unless they side with the Turks and want them to expand in that area.
It is up to our leaders (their responsibility) to slowly move us towards Armenia’s complete sovereignty. We don't need to be as strong or as rich as Turkey to accomplish this.

I think Armenia has made some moves twords a more independent course but it is important to realise that Armenia is not ready in any way to be independent of Russia nor will it be anytime soon. I also think that Armenia should slowly build itself to the point where it can be independent but there is a very looong way to go to get to that point and we have to rely on Russia untill then. Russia does not want us to be independent so she can keep her control over us and that is why this move to strengthen our country needs to be done slowly without provoking Russian fear of losing control in Armenia. I will disagree with you on your last point, we cannot be truely independent so long as we rely on others for our security. Turckey would like nothing better then for Armenia to lose Russias support in which case its wet dreams of panturckism will be realised. In order to be independent Armenia will have to be serious military power able to ward off not just turckey but also the Azeris in the eastern front. You cannot be independent if you cannot defend yourself from your enemies and Armenia is a long ways from either. I see Iran as a important friend in our future because we share more and more interests and i think Russia should be more supportive of Iran then she has been because both of these countries share the interest of killing panturckism.

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

....Turckey would like nothing better then for Armenia to lose Russias support in which case its wet dreams of panturckism will be realised. In order to be independent Armenia will have to be serious military power able to ward off not just turckey but also the Azeris in the eastern front. You cannot be independent if you cannot defend yourself from your enemies and Armenia is a long ways from either.....

Armenia will either still be a member of CSTO or will become an active member of NATO. My guess would be regardless of the relations with Russia, pan-Turkism is not something they would welcome, especially when new direct pipelines will be built to by pass Russia plus reduce Turkey’s reliance on them (Russia provides 60%. Of Turkey’s gas)

Turkey is the only country in the region that can challenge Russia militarily and a stronger bigger agressive Turkey is not what Russia would want to see.