Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[londontsi]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

We are loosing the information war with Azerbaijan and some of it its our own fault.

Zori Balayan’s action had both strategic as well as tactical errors for the nation.

A citizen however authoritative, jumping over all structures of society, without discussion, debate, testing the water,
offers to be taken over by another country is beyond belief.

If it was done as a personal initiative it was half baked, clumsy and idiotic as well a treacherous.

However it does have the hallmarks of some interests who seem to be in a hurry,
smells like the “strategic changeover, on the fly” of Putin/Sarkisyan vis a vi Eurasian Union.

In any even this action was very divisive, causing confusion in society regarding state security and loyalties.

Anybody within society, governing or opinion forming, offering away part of its Hayrenik, of his own initiative, is tantamount to the behaviour of a traitor.

I do not care what he did for Karabagh.
Many many others did far more than him including giving their lives.
Being a patriot at one point in life cannot be used to mitigate for being a traitor down the line.

A very good example is General Petain ( of France) who became a national hero during first world war and a collaborator and a traitor during the Nazi occupation of France.
Even after death he was not left to rest in peace, his grave was desecrated on more than one occasion.

Zori Balayan is no General Petain, but his end could be.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Zori Balayan’s action had both strategic as well as tactical errors for the nation.

A citizen however authoritative, jumping over all structures of society, without discussion, debate, testing the water,
offers to be taken over by another country is beyond belief.

If it was done as a personal initiative it was half baked, clumsy and idiotic as well a treacherous.

However it does have the hallmarks of some interests who seem to be in a hurry,
smells like the “strategic changeover, on the fly” of Putin/Sarkisyan vis a vi Eurasian Union.

In any even this action was very divisive, causing confusion in society regarding state security and loyalties.

Anybody within society, governing or opinion forming, offering away part of its Hayrenik, of his own initiative, is tantamount to the behaviour of a traitor.

I do not care what he did for Karabagh.
Many many others did far more than him including giving their lives.
Being a patriot at one point in life cannot be used to mitigate for being a traitor down the line.

A very good example is General Petain ( of France) who became a national hero during first world war and a collaborator and a traitor during the Nazi occupation of France.
Even after death he was not left to rest in peace, his grave was desecrated on more than one occasion.

Zori Balayan is no General Petain, but his end could be.

I'll repost part of something that upset the jerks of the forum when posted on the NK Military Balance thread:

....the ethos behind its writing is the admittance, by implication, by its author, that no peaceful solution to the conflict will ever be found, that Yerevan is incapable of properly defending NK in the long term, and that only Russia will be able to properly do it.

The letter is, I think, in its essence, an application to rejoin the Russian Empire. Which is why it is important to know if this letter is just an application by one private individual, or an individual acting on behalf of a section of the Armenian authorities interesting in testing the waters about a possible road for Armenia's future. The fact that a lot of the Armenian media sources stress it was an individual (but without really giving readers an explanation about why it is important to know it was just an individual) suggests to me that it was not just a private initiative by Zori Balayan. Other recent events, such as the sellout of Armenian interests to join Russia's custom's union backs up that opinion. So, it is not unreasonable to fortell a future campaign (perhaps led by the oligarchs who run Armenia) for the re-admittance of Armenia into a reborn, Putin-led, Russian Empire. (However, apart from the prestige of it happening, Russia has probably little interest in seeing such a thing ever happen).

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I'll repost part of something that upset the jerks of the forum when posted on the NK Military Balance thread:

....the ethos behind its writing is the admittance, by implication, by its author, that no peaceful solution to the conflict will ever be found, that Yerevan is incapable of properly defending NK in the long term, and that only Russia will be able to properly do it.

The letter is, I think, in its essence, an application to rejoin the Russian Empire. Which is why it is important to know if this letter is just an application by one private individual, or an individual acting on behalf of a section of the Armenian authorities interesting in testing the waters about a possible road for Armenia's future. The fact that a lot of the Armenian media sources stress it was an individual (but without really giving readers an explanation about why it is important to know it was just an individual) suggests to me that it was not just a private initiative by Zori Balayan. Other recent events, such as the sellout of Armenian interests to join Russia's custom's union backs up that opinion. So, it is not unreasonable to fortell a future campaign (perhaps led by the oligarchs who run Armenia) for the re-admittance of Armenia into a reborn, Putin-led, Russian Empire. (However, apart from the prestige of it happening, Russia has probably little interest in seeing such a thing ever happen).

Why didn't you repost all of your comment, jerk? About your sources and quotes from the letter. We are still waiting for your exerpts from letter.
Armenians have a nice saying about people like you, "you cannot stop a donkey from constant yeeeehaaaying, because if you close it's mouth it will yeeeehaaa from rear end, if you plug it's butt, it will yeeehaa from ears and you don't have four hands to close all the holes.

[Haykakan]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Hmm "rejoin the Russian empire" you say..i would like to know when we left it. I think most of you are very much out of touch with reality regarding the issues Armenia faces. Yes Russia is an imperial power just like USA, England, France, Turkey.. so what? Have you seen what the USA empire has done to the middle east? Have you seen the progress China and India made once they got rid of the imperial brits? Sure it would be great if Armenia along with Artsakh could be independent but that simply is not the case today(Armenia is not China nor India) thus the only decision is which empire to join. I do not see anything other then restatement of reality in this letter thus again i ask where is the outrage that some of you are screaming about? The western option was , is , and will always be a non-issue because it does not come with security and we cannot guarantee our own security. I think the fact that so many here are outraged by the mere restatement of reality indicates something about you and how detached you are from the real world. For all the outrage expressed here again there is no feasible alternative offered by anyone-0 none-never-ever-zilch. The fact is the only power besides Russia here is Turkey and if you think that power has changed since when it tried to erradicate us then look at what it is doing in Syria-kidnapping and killing Armenians, destroying our churches, shooting and gassing civilians.. I think western media has most of you brainwashed just like the rest of the world. I am very curious for all the indignation you people show at Armenia/Artsakh relying on Russia for security..how many of you are willing to go defend Armenia instead? You know the diaspora does have millions of people but are they willing to go defend? How many you think would go? You bash Russia for doing what is in its interest but that is a lot better then what the west does because it cares not for its own national interest but rather special interest of the highest bidder thus which one would make a better partner/emperor for Armenia? Nobody has any answers to these basic questions yet disgust and resentment are rife here. The lot of you sound like a screaming baby who has long forgotten what he was screaming about in the first place but he remembers nothing but screaming thus screaming is all he does.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Hmm "rejoin the Russian empire" you say..i would like to know when we left it. I think most of you are very much out of touch with reality regarding the issues Armenia faces. Yes Russia is an imperial power just like USA, England, France, Turkey.. so what? Have you seen what the USA empire has done to the middle east? Have you seen the progress China and India made once they got rid of the imperial brits? Sure it would be great if Armenia along with Artsakh could be independent but that simply is not the case today(Armenia is not China nor India) thus the only decision is which empire to join. I do not see anything other then restatement of reality in this letter thus again i ask where is the outrage that some of you are screaming about? The western option was , is , and will always be a non-issue because it does not come with security and we cannot guarantee our own security. I think the fact that so many here are outraged by the mere restatement of reality indicates something about you and how detached you are from the real world. For all the outrage expressed here again there is no feasible alternative offered by anyone-0 none-never-ever-zilch. The fact is the only power besides Russia here is Turkey and if you think that power has changed since when it tried to erradicate us then look at what it is doing in Syria-kidnapping and killing Armenians, destroying our churches, shooting and gassing civilians.. I think western media has most of you brainwashed just like the rest of the world. I am very curious for all the indignation you people show at Armenia/Artsakh relying on Russia for security..how many of you are willing to go defend Armenia instead? You know the diaspora does have millions of people but are they willing to go defend? How many you think would go? You bash Russia for doing what is in its interest but that is a lot better then what the west does because it cares not for its own national interest but rather special interest of the highest bidder thus which one would make a better partner/emperor for Armenia? Nobody has any answers to these basic questions yet disgust and resentment are rife here. The lot of you sound like a screaming baby who has long forgotten what he was screaming about in the first place but he remembers nothing but screaming thus screaming is all he does.

See when humor is needed ???
You must have worked as a Pravda correspondent in CCCP years

[londontsi]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

....the ethos behind its writing is the admittance, by implication, by its author,

Who is the author

that no peaceful solution to the conflict will ever be found,

Nothing new here, the sultan has been trying to scare us into submission by buying arms.
His coffers will remain unlimited for a while.
If this strategy has legs, what would stop him repeat and demand more after Karabagh.

that Yerevan is incapable of properly defending NK in the long term,

You as well as the author missed the point.
If attacked, it will not about defence but (counter) attack and its consequences.

... and that only Russia will be able to properly do it.

Russia is not the best entity to protect Karabagh but the Karabaghtsis and Armenia.
Russian security strategy is all about dominance of the energy market and income from it.
At an opportune moment it could easily exchange Karabagh for the right deal with Azerbaijan to maintain its dominance of the gas supply market.

PS Lets never forget the prophetic words of Monte Melkonyan, without Artsakh Armenia has no future.

.

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[I]Nothing new here, the sultan has been trying to scare us into submission by buying arms.
His coffers will remain unlimited for a while.
If this strategy has legs, what would stop him repeat and demand more after Karabagh.

Absolute true, agree with this 100%



You as well as the author missed the point.
If attacked, it will not about defence but (counter) attack and its consequences.

Still anybody should read the autors's own words and then say if he is right or wrong. I myself have not read it and advise you guys to wait a little until it is published and then we should discuss it. About the idea of attacking instead of defense , I agree 100%. But we have to do our homework and do it right to be able to do it.



Russia is not the best entity to protect Karabagh but the Karabaghtsis and Armenia.

Again nobody can say anything bad about comment above. It is the reality.



Russian security strategy is all about dominance of the energy market and income from it.
At an opportune moment it could easily exchange Karabagh for the right deal with Azerbaijan to maintain its dominance of the gas supply market.

and so russia has not done it yet because once loosing it's bases in Armenia it cannot feel enough a guarantees from baku that azeris will not change their mind and kick russia out of caucasus all together with help from turkey and west. But this depends from Armenia as well as to how much can russia rely on us.
If we are going thru the same path as georgia (going to bed with west), what guarantees does russia have that Armenia will not close it's bases like georgians did?
Who says that europe will not put demands of closing russian bases in the future if Armenia becomes fully reliant from west? Are we ready to go georgia's path and see what happens?
By the way, reading Igor Muradyan's ideas, he reminds me more and more of georgian lunatic Sahakashvilli, and seeing how west cornered georgia and cut her dialog with russians, with resulting loss of territories and economic ties. And how west stood by and screwed up even the decent PR for georgia( let alone protecting it physically in any way), while russians were gutting the country in 2008, wonder if we, Armenians, can ever learn from other's mistakes (not our's, which, I know, we are not capable of).

PS Lets never forget the prophetic words of Monte Melkonyan, without Artsakh Armenia has no future.

.[/QUOTE]

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

This is so retarded.....If Russia is an ally then why there is a need to give up sovereignty established by blood for Russian security? Russia is already doing that for Armenia and if Azerbaijan wants Artsakh they can try taking it, there is no need for Russian intervention or making NKR Russian territory.

Some people just need to be taken to the back and shot on the spot.

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

OK watching all theese arguments in media about Zori's letter, I think that he should not have addressed it to putin, but instead he should have addressed it to our own government. He also should not have repeated his ideas about history of Artsakh perteining to any gulistan treaty, because it does not sit well with new generation in republic, who see any remainder or discussion of russian involvement in those areas as invitation to come and take controll again. For some reason a lot of people see european association or any membership with it not treatening our independence or our security guarantees as much as joining the customs union. Some people look at european union and think that any membership or anything with it is safe, how much real or which most important aspects, like security for us it will provide or not nobody wants to talk about. People forget often that our neigbour is not Austria or Sweeden, but turkey and azerbaijan. Not knowing what the customs union will be, there is a lot of anxiety that it may become just a simple russian empire like before. There is more emotional debate in it then realistic strategies or discussions of any of our real external and internal problems. Nobody seems to want to face the facts about how much russians are involved there now. How, from security to allmost everyting, like energy or any other areas, Armenia is terribly dependent and interconnected with russia, which by itself is a source of anxiety. Our own government has failed miserably by not publishing information about what customs union will be for Armenia and if anything will change.
Good old Zori has unknowingly put himself in the middle of fire exchange between prorussian and prowestern groups, thats all.
Europe is the choice and close to some peoples hearts, but they do not like to talk about what the real situation is at our neighborhood and what real future implications there could be.
I am sure, we can discuss "the letter", once it is published, though there are comments that it is terribly too long. As much as to make the reader allmost forget as to what it is about.

[londontsi]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

This is so retarded.....

Almost hilarious,

Azerbaijan is the enemy intent on capturing and subjugating Artsakh.
Russia is the main supplier of military hardware to Azerbaijan.
An offer is being made to hand over sovereignty of Artsakh to Russia.


I need to see a shrink !!!

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