Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Great post Levon. I too am of the opinion that there is more at work than we are led to believe in these and other so called 'westernization' or liberlization drives in Armenia and other parts of the world.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Awesome posters. They are spotlight examples of typical feminist inspired propaganda posters that are meant to imply general social problems, yet use cherry-picked isolated examples and assert widespread social problem without providing any evidence that what they claim is a widespread problem.
Moreover, the clever wording and placement of statements such as "Some men still control their spouses" (that may be true in isolation, but not in general) are meant to incite the reader to form an opinion that is completely misdirected and wrong.

Let's start with the frirst poster, shall we?

-An average looking woman, frustrated. (Chosen to symbolize that her problems are those of average women, YET no such evidence is provided - FEMINIST PROPAGANDA TACTIC

-She married at 17 and her husband does not allow her to work. (Meant to imply that average Armenian women marry at 17 and are controlled by their husbands - YET no evidence is provided that this is the case in the Armenian society at large - FEMINIST PROPAGANDA TACTIC

The next statement pretty much proves that her isolated case is meant to create a generalization. I will break it down now.

: In Armenia, this is still an issue. - Incorrect assertion - - How does one woman's story reflect the condition of an entire country? - Typical Feminist Propaganda tactic

: Some men still control the destiny of their spouses - This statement is placed right after "In Armenian, this is still an issue" to encourage the reader to make the assumption that this is indeed a large-scale problem in Armenia; HOWEVER, the following are also true statements

-> Some Armenian women cheat on their husbands (as a one woman example, a woman in my neighborhood slept with most youngsters around when her husband was in Russia working to support her)
-> Some Armenian women murder their children
-> Some Armenian women commit violent crimes
-> Some Armenian women abuse their children (as a one woman example, my childhood friend used to get daily beatings from his mom and aunt - usually with a heeled show).

But, just because these statements are true, can anyone use them to claim that there are widespread problems in Armenia related to women committing violent crimes, and abusing their children?
NO, but why does the creator of the poster feel that generalizing isolated cases is ok? - Typical Feminist Propaganda tactic

: they don't want to see their wives communicate with other men - Nothing, even on the poster, to support this. Apparently the creator of the poster feels that it's ok to write assumptions based on no evidence, as long as something related to it has been stated already. - Typical Feminist Propaganda tactic This is what feminists are really good at. They somehow try to assert one statement, and with their assumed veracity of the said statement imply the veracity of other statements that are somewhat similar.

: Today, Heghine's biggest wish is to see her 16 year old daughter go to University and find a job - This may indeed be the woman's wish; however, it is placed right after the preceding statements to imply that most women in Armenia currently do not have the ability to go to University nor find a job. - This implication is completely incorrect, butWhat a clever way of guiding the reader towards a conclusion. - That's right - Typical Feminist Propaganda tactic

: Things are slowly changing - Meant to imply that there is a LOT of work left to do. Great tactic to guide the reader to feel sympathetic for the woman, and as a result to convince the reader that there is a widespread problem and something needs to be done. - Again, a Typical Femenist Propaganda tactic

- Please do note that women in Armenia do go to University in around the same numbers as men, and most men in Armenia have no problem with their wives working.


Onto the second poster
This one follows the same pattern as any propaganda poster, and attempts to encourage incorrect generalizations based on facts obtained from one woman.

Before reading further, please note, it portrays an unattractive woman, the importance of which I will explain a little later.

: Lianna is 36, and a mother of 2. - This is meant to imply a connection with the woman in the previous poster, as she too was a mother of two and of the same age group. - I'm guessing these posters are part of a campaign and are meant to be viewed at the same time. In essence, it is meant to establish a connection between hardships of two women and in turn encourage the generalization that this is common for all women
- Need I say more? Typical Feminist propaganda tactic

: She had graduated from Yerevan State Pedagogical University before she had kids - Meant to encourage the connection that not just under-educated married women are treated badly. This is in order to encourage the reader to generalize that all women are discriminated against (of course, no evidence of such is given, the generalization is meant for the reader.
-Typical Feminist propaganda tactic - establish sympathy, then encourage a generalization.

: Today, in order to have a job...., Liana needs to pay a $1000 bribe to the school principal so he gives her a job.

This one is very subtle, so I will point out these subtleties.
-> The $1000 bribe - Meant to imply that the only way a woman can get a job is by making a bribe. Firstly, if there is a bribe to be payed it would be both for men and women and in the same amount. This is a larger problem of corruption; however, the author of the poster tries to make this a woman only problem - This is very very Typical Feminist propaganda tactic - Choose a problem that affects both sexes, but only concentrate on the women.

-> Notice how the author has cleverly said "to the school principal so he (my emphasis) gives her a job" - This is meant to establish that men hold all the power and women have to give bribes in order to get a job.

-> Now, on to the importance of portraying an unattractive woman. It indirectly implies that since an ugly, overweight woman has to give a $1000 bribe, maybe a pretty girl will get a job by giving other kinds of favors. - Encourage the reader to assume that women are severely discriminated against because of their looks - AGAIN, another typical feminist propaganda tactic


: After the age of 25, an Armenian woman's chances of finding a job decreases dramatically - I honestly, have no idea how this conclusion can be reached from the example of one 36 year old woman.
- Establish sympathy, then suggest a completely incorrect generalization -Very typical feminist propaganda tactic

: Yes, this is still a problem in this country - Again, how does one woman's hardship translate into a problem for the whole country? It DOESN'T, this is merely another feminist propaganda tactic, that establishes sympathy, suggests a generalization, then establishes a conclusion. This is NOT Logical, yet works great on the general population.

Now, onto poster #3
This is the finishing poster of the campaign as it is meant to establish that a middle-aged Armenian woman, who had a good career, when she was younger, is doomed to be divorced and make a measly monthly salary.

- Notice that the woman in the poster also has 2 children - establish a connection between the women in the previous two posters - very important feminist propaganda tactic as it encourages a very large generalization.

- She is no longer attractive, but it's evident that she was rather attractive when she was younger - This encourages generalization that only attractive young women in Armenia can have successful careers, and only while they are young (connection with a message in poster #2) - (NOT the case in Armenia)

- She is divorced - meant to imply that Armenian men are only interested in being with younger women, and divorce their wives when they get older (Not the case in Armenia

- She no longer works as an engineer, but as a full-time babysitter. - This, along with the above is meant to imply that Armenians no longer see use in middle aged, unattractive women, no matter what their education and experience. A direct implication that men only see women useful in their youth, and only when they are attractive. This is a feminist lie that feminists like to repeat over and over again, yet never seem to find any conclusive evidence to support it. In essence, they are just spreading propaganda, hoping that nobody will question the veracity of the statements and conclusions they push forward. This, is the holy grail of feminist propaganda tactics

- Also note, that by painting a picture of an under-salaried, divorced woman the poster

Aims to create sympathy in order to encourage a generalization and guide the reader towards an incorrect conclusion
-----------------------

Now that I've analyzed these posters, I have a few comments which some of you sensitive souls should refrain from reading.

The people who are creating such posters and are actively distributing them, DO NOT have Armenia's BEST INTERESTS at HEART. They are spreading false generalizations, and propagating incorrect assumptions and conclusions. They are doing this to create a gender divide in our beloved homeland, so that we, as a people, as a nation lose our numbers, lose our strength and be ripe for complete and total destruction and assimilation.

Let all such people take their vile crap and stick it up their gaping behinds, where it belongs. **** all of them to hell.


Siggie, I sincerely hope that you are neither involved in the creation nor the active distribution of these kinds of propaganda materials.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

In the Americas, that's not a problem as you don't need a job. You just incurr more and more debt and wait for someone else to pay it off for you.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I'll simply add again that if there are women capable of maintaining a career and at the same time raising their kids and being a good wife (I consider all of the above as responsibilities) then no one can prevent them from doing/being so.
This however requires a mental/physical health, strength and balance that not all women possess. On the other hand, there are women who stay at home day and night to take care of their kids but have shown to be quite incapable and disqualified for the job. How about them? Shouldn't we rather search for the problem elsewhere?

The word "tembel" comes to mind... yeah, it's probably Turkish.

Yea I call that prostitution and a disguised one at that. At least the real prostitutes have the honesty/courage to show what they are for… and I'm not talking about being with a 'bum… there are many girls today who are not satisfied with a modest income, they simply do not find it attractive … as a consequence the nice, intelligent guy with all the qualities in the world but with a an average earning is being rejected in favour of a rich man with whatever infirmity/disabilities... and the woman goes at any lengths to adapt herself to his lifestyle, his caprices, merely to lead a comfortable life. I know many of these girls, including amongst my own friends and cousins. I can go into more details concerning the games women may play with men on different levels of their relationship.. That's plain disgusting, Kanadahye, are you as a guy defending them, finding it legitimate? May you get one of those women!

Now what have I ever done to you to deserve your Armenian curse . In regards to you friends/cousins, either they don't realize they too are being played or they have a keen sense of finding dumb men. The former meaning they are only wasting their own time out of their life and the latter meaning they are predatory in nature. Either way, they are pretty much just wasting time, something we don't have much of in life.

Vaaay Levon, the omelet thing was just an example. What has it got to do with lust? You wouldn't help your wife to do the chores. Please do so, it is not a pleasant job to do every single day, it's boring.

An omelet is made with eggs right? What Levon meant was... there are 2 kinds of attraction. The first being physical and the second being logical and you were referring to logical attraction when you brought up the omelet thing. You don't want to be stuck with someone that needs a mother and a wife... why should you bare all the duties because their first mother didn't do their job right in the first place, lol. I see this happening a lot and I don't know why some women are attracted to the lazy types that can't iron a shirt or carry a job and the woman ends up doing both yet somehow she feels empowered Must be some sort of reverse psychology.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Without getting much into the rest of the discussion, I just want to point out that quality daycare and babysitters are options as well. Daycare is good because the child can learn social skills through interacting with other children and it helps with the transition to preschool/kindergarten. Also, if the parents, for whatever reason, do not want to put their child in daycare or hire a caretaker, there are often family members who may be able and willing to watch the children. so, really it isn't necessary for the mother to be home during the day. Actually, if there's flexibility in either parents schedules they can offset things so they may not need daycare/sitter or if they do, it would only be for a few hours.

The following are references that found that children who attended daycare were no worse off in their development.

Belsky, J. (1990). Parental and nonparental child care and children's socioemotional development: A decade in review. Hournal of Marriage and the Family, 52 , 885-903.

Chase-Landsdale, P.L. Moffitt, R.A., Lohman, B.J., Cherlin, A.J., Coley, R.L., Pittman, L.D., Roff, J., & Botruba-Drzal, E. (2003). Mothers' transitions from welfare to work and the well-being of preschoolers and adolescents. Science, 299, 1548-1552.

Erel, O., Oberman, Y., & Yirmiya, N. (2000). maternal versus nonmaternal care and seven domains of child development. Psychological Bulletin, 126 , 727-747.

Scarr, S. (1986). Mothercare/other care. New York: Basic Books.

Scarr, S. (1997). Why child care has little impact on most children's development. Current Directions in Psychologica Science, 6, 143- 148.

and the following study also found that working mothers compensate for time away by spending more of their free, "social" time and weekends with their children than do stay at home mothers.

Huston, , A.C., & Aronson, S.R. (2005). Mothers' time with infant and time in employment as predictors of mother-child relationships and children's early development. Child Development, 76, 467-482.

[Lucin]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I'll simply add again that if there are women capable of maintaining a career and at the same time raising their kids and being a good wife (I consider all of the above as responsibilities) then no one can prevent them from doing/being so.
This however requires a mental/physical health, strength and balance that not all women possess. On the other hand, there are women who stay at home day and night to take care of their kids but have shown to be quite incapable and disqualified for the job. How about them? Shouldn't we rather search for the problem elsewhere?

That's a point of view. Would marrying someone for good looks, intelligence, or personality amount to prostitution as well? I don't think considering money or job status amounts to prostitution as a successful family cannot be built (without a lot of troubles) without resources such as money or a good job, but I don't think these should be the only factors considered.

Yea I call that prostitution and a disguised one at that. At least the real prostitutes have the honesty/courage to show what they are for… and I'm not talking about being with a 'bum… there are many girls today who are not satisfied with a modest income, they simply do not find it attractive … as a consequence the nice, intelligent guy with all the qualities in the world but with a an average earning is being rejected in favour of a rich man with whatever infirmity/disabilities... and the woman goes at any lengths to adapt herself to his lifestyle, his caprices, merely to lead a comfortable life. I know many of these girls, including amongst my own friends and cousins. I can go into more details concerning the games women may play with men on different levels of their relationship.. That's plain disgusting, Kanadahye, are you as a guy defending them, finding it legitimate? May you get one of those women!

So by that you are implying that if a man doesn't do chores for his woman, then he is unable to make himself an omelet? I think not wanting to do chores for a woman (unless necessary) is completely different from being a big baby who is unable to take care of himself.

And I also think that when you said attracted, you meant marriage-material, not lusty attraction.

Vaaay Levon, the omelet thing was just an example. What has it got to do with lust? You wouldn't help your wife to do the chores. Please do so, it is not a pleasant job to do every single day, it's boring.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I do not need to call you anything, people who think like you make themselves look pretty bad all by themselves. You completely ignore the fact that women historicaly were hardly put in a position to make a difference and the few that did get to that position and excelled you simply want to write them off as some kind of anomoly when in truth if given the chance many more would have been successful.

He's claiming when given the choice, most women choose to stay at home to raise their kids. He's not "thinking" like anybody. Somebody has to stay home with the kids unless they can afford day care or a nanny. Life isn't like the Cosby show where both parents are professionals but somehow are still home all the time to take care of the household and parent the kids. Usually one of the parents has to have some flexibility with their hours at work.

The last thing i need is someone with much less experience then me in raising a family to tell me the right way to do it and what should or shouldnt be done and what a woman should or shouldnt do. There is no one way to do it right, there are many. Limiting yourself or your wife to one lifestyle is both needless and sahmanapag. You dont have to be a "wage slave" and she does not have to be a "house wife" for you to raise a happy and healthy family. Having a family is not a "life ending event". Sure family comes first but that does not mean you cannot engage in satisfying your personal needs and desires at the same time. It is not always a either or thing you can do some of the things you always wanted and still be a good dad and a good mom, as a matter of fact that will set a much healthier example for your childeren then the wage slave mentality you describe. I run a business, am working on my MBA, take care of my family and still make time to go icefishing. Teaching was too much with everything else i was doing so i quit and guess what-the world did not come to a end. Being a devoted family man does not have to mean turning yourself into a wage slave martyr you describe.

Sounds like you work way harder than most of our dads did growing up and they were able to provide for their family with 1 income. Shouldn't you have less of a workload since you aren't the only one supporting the family?

And quite frankly i agree with Lucin-if a woman marries a man for his money then how is that different then prostitution? Not that i am trying to badmouth the oldest profession on earth but lets call things for what they are.

If a woman marries a bum with no future, how is that any different than stupidity? That's usually why first marriages fail and then the second time around the woman smartens up and looks for money. That's probably closer to prostitution.

There is more then one way to do most things and the best way may depend on the individual or in this case the members in the family. Some may be fine with the wage slave/houswife approach while others will decide to take a different appproach. There is no right or wrong way here as long as the family stays the priority. You do need to be a responcible parent-wife-husband but that doesnt mean being a wage slave or a house wife or not doing what you want in life. Good grandparents can be lifesavers when it comes to families and they are worth mentioning to. They can play important roles in the family (sometimes in a bad way to). The one way mentality of yours is what i have a problem with. There are more ways then one to do it right and your assessment of the wage slave/houswife family unit being the only right way to raise a armenian family is just simply wrong and my family is living proof among thousends of other families. Had my parents thought the way you do our family would have been in big trouble when my dad passed away at a early age. My mom was a practicing doctor because my dad encouraged her to persue her career and was able to provide for my sister and i. A housewife in the same situation would be in a great deal of trouble along with her childeren. Having a duel income is a family insurence policy. People raise happy and healthy kids in different kinds of family settings. Being a good parent does not have to mean being a wage slave or a houswife but it can mean that to. What works for one family may not work for another since people are different thus placing needless limitations on people and families is simply insane.

What you're talking about here is no different than what Levon is saying. He's not saying that women should be discouraged from getting an education or persuing a career but while they are doing so, they should keep in mind that at some point they will have to make a sacrifice if they want to raise a family. It's about a 5-10 time span where a lot of attention is needed at home until the kids are off to grade school, and at the age where they can take care of themselves if (raised properly). Also what you're describing depends a lot on the type of careers involved. Most women who persue demanding careers in law or medicine usually can't even think about a family until they are well in their 30's at which time they have to put their career on hold and don't usually get back into the workforce until their 40's.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I do not need to call you anything, people who think like you make themselves look pretty bad all by themselves. You completely ignore the fact that women historicaly were hardly put in a position to make a difference and the few that did get to that position and excelled you simply want to write them off as some kind of anomoly when in truth if given the chance many more would have been successful. The last thing i need is someone with much less experience then me in raising a family to tell me the right way to do it and what should or shouldnt be done and what a woman should or shouldnt do. There is no one way to do it right, there are many. Limiting yourself or your wife to one lifestyle is both needless and sahmanapag. You dont have to be a "wage slave" and she does not have to be a "house wife" for you to raise a happy and healthy family. Having a family is not a "life ending event". Sure family comes first but that does not mean you cannot engage in satisfying your personal needs and desires at the same time. It is not always a either or thing you can do some of the things you always wanted and still be a good dad and a good mom, as a matter of fact that will set a much healthier example for your childeren then the wage slave mentality you describe. I run a business, am working on my MBA, take care of my family and still make time to go icefishing. Teaching was too much with everything else i was doing so i quit and guess what-the world did not come to a end. Being a devoted family man does not have to mean turning yourself into a wage slave martyr you describe. And quite frankly i agree with Lucin-if a woman marries a man for his money then how is that different then prostitution? Not that i am trying to badmouth the oldest profession on earth but lets call things for what they are. There is more then one way to do most things and the best way may depend on the individual or in this case the members in the family. Some may be fine with the wage slave/houswife approach while others will decide to take a different appproach. There is no right or wrong way here as long as the family stays the priority. You do need to be a responcible parent-wife-husband but that doesnt mean being a wage slave or a house wife or not doing what you want in life. Good grandparents can be lifesavers when it comes to families and they are worth mentioning to. They can play important roles in the family (sometimes in a bad way to). The one way mentality of yours is what i have a problem with. There are more ways then one to do it right and your assessment of the wage slave/houswife family unit being the only right way to raise a armenian family is just simply wrong and my family is living proof among thousends of other families. Had my parents thought the way you do our family would have been in big trouble when my dad passed away at a early age. My mom was a practicing doctor because my dad encouraged her to persue her career and was able to provide for my sister and i. A housewife in the same situation would be in a great deal of trouble along with her childeren. Having a duel income is a family insurence policy. People raise happy and healthy kids in different kinds of family settings. Being a good parent does not have to mean being a wage slave or a houswife but it can mean that to. What works for one family may not work for another since people are different thus placing needless limitations on people and families is simply insane.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

As for this thread all i gotta say is placing limitations on people is just plain wrong.

There is a fine line between placing limitations and discussing roles men and women play in a family setting. Armenian culture is family oriented, and as such matters pertaining to family are more important than matters pertaining to individual happiness.

Women can do almost everything men can and telling them otherwise is just not right.

Ok, so it's not right to tell women that they shouldn't go to war and die? Great idea, let's start encouraging Armenian women to go die at war so our birth rates become even lower than they are now.

The differences between sexes are not big enough to bar members of one sex from doing any job.

In Armenia, no one bars women from doing a job. If she qualifies, then she can do it. I think you are viewing Armenia assuming the situation there is the same as in Saudi-Arabia.
However, there is a difference between letting someone do something, and encouraging them to do it.

Family always comes first for guys and gals but this does not have to be a career ending event. Plenty of women can manage careers and family.

And plenty of others crumble under all the stress and responsibility. Is it worth creating the super-mom image in Armenia, where you know there will at least be as many failures as successes? NO

BTW, family is not a career ending event, it's a life ending event. Once you have kids, your life is no longer yours, at least until they become old enough to take care of themselves. Until that happens, one must consider child raising more important that one's personal goals outside of the family.

Some of the best rulers on earth were women like catharine the great and eliziabeth.

You mean, very few rulers on earth were women. Amongst the countless male rulers, there were a few female rulers. Just as in science, literature, engineering, art, music, etc.

We armenians have women heros to like hripsime and gayane and taguhis..

You mean, amongst the countless Armenian men that gave their lives so that we can preserve our names, our religion and our identity there were a few women who also decided to die for our cause. That's very respectable, but by emphasizing the few women, you are making irrelevant the countless Armenian men that died. Don't

I thought this thread was a great idea but it sure took a bad turn because of the same kind of intolorance and backwardness we witnessed in some of the other threads. It is sad but better it come out then corrupt from within.

Just because someone has opinions that differ from yours don't be too quick to judge them as intolerant and backward. That's called ignorance, and it's intolerant and backward.