Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Levon your understanding of this subject is indeed crude and very much limited. I will give you a example using your own rebuttles."There are many animals who are territorial. A male lion won't let other male lions mate with his women. Is that because of money too???" Lion prides are more territorial then people-they are geneticaly hardwired to be this way-people are not. I guess you did not know thus i will inform you that male lions rarely rule a pride alone, successfull prides have two to three adult males who defend the tribe from other males togather and have sex with all the females. Male lions are so much more territorial then humans that they will kill the cubs of a conquered tribe so the females will come into heat and mate yet even in this -the most territorial of natures examples-the males do not have exclusive sexual privilages and must share the females with the other one or two males. The females are not bystanders in this regard either, they will flirt with the male they consider the more attractive (usually the darker fuller maned one). The females not only have a say so in which male they breed with but they will flirt like hell and even hurt the male to get his attention when they are in heat.This is just one example of how your limited understanding of the facts effects your judgements and decision making. Historically there have been many different family structures including matriarchal structures which revolved around women more then men, there have been structures like the one i described with the tribe being the family(which you yourself said you have heard of) and many others. One can argue that matriarchy is still alive and well in black families, some indian and even western societies where women make the important decisions vs the men. It is important to understand that the prevalent family structure is not neceseraly the best one for humans to live in. Just because something is popular doesnt make it right. We humans are more versatile then the lion and we can live in a more variety of structures but we too are geneticaly programed to be comfortable in a sertain structure-far less so then a lion but preprogramed non the less. The husband and wife thing is not our natural family unit, it is a byproduct of culture and religious teachings. Notice how because of religious and other social factors the family unit changes as in lets say catholics advocate a single man/woman family unit while mormons who are also chrystians advocate a man/women family unit as do muslims and some other cultures/religions. People are so versatile in fact that the most admired of the civilizations, the one that brought us the concepts of philosophy, democracy, laws like the ancient greek civilization-had a very different concept of a family unit. It had a husband and a wife but their relationship both sexualy and emotionaly was secondary to that of the husband and another man. This is a good example of how the "model family unit" you describe was not as dominant as you claim it to be even in the birthing ground of civilization. As for money i am sure that you have heard the phrase "money is the root of all evile", sure money by itself is neither good nor evile but it allows for some people to have much more power then others and these people will invariably use this power to control and manipulate. This power very much effects the family structure. In muslim countries the more money you have the more wives you can keep and number of wives become the symbol of power and in western societies the term "trophy wife" may be familiar to some of you here and it is basicaly a very hott babe who married a very rich man for his money and power thus she becomes a symbol of his success. It is easy to see how money effects the dynamics of family along with many other things in a negative way. Another good example is what is going on in the usa where women in court are given too many privilages(this i do agree with you) when it comes to custody and financial compensation. Again a woman who knows she has a lot of money coming her way due to divorce is less inclined to stick around. Being naive will make people suceptible to many ills and things like money and religion become efficiant vehicles for those intending to do harm. The limitations i spoke of were actualy clearly stated along with the reasons why they were needless like you consept of the "wage slave" role for males and the mother staying home to rais the kids, these were fully discussed in my previous post. As for Armenia, it is important to understand the benefits derived from diversity so that one can see how it can benefit the country. Diversity gives you a different angle on things, it provides different ways of solving a problem thus providing more and better solutions. Armanen gave a great example of how diversity helps in a different thread while he was actually trying to make a argument against it. People like Pushkin are examples of how accepting diversity can bring benefits to the country. Pushkin is a decendent of a black man yet he along with his black ansector were accepted in russian society. The black man managed to live-thrive and produce the best known literery talent russia has known. This is just one example of how accepting diversity can help the country. Many more examples are there especialy from the soviet union days where many of its best generals, doctors writers... came from different parts of the union including Armenia. I dont want to get this far off topic so i will revert back and say that women need to have rights just like men no more and no less because they are people to. Neither you nor anyone else has the right to limit their rights or roles-they play in society. The examples you brought up are extreme examples of militant feminism and that is not what i nor what most women want. I am against giving one gender more or less rights then another and this also means i am against the present bias in the courts of the usa where women have a unfair advantage. Limiting the rights of people is no way to solve a problem, it creates a closed minded society and breeds resentment in the oppressed.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Levon your understanding of society and the man/woman relations are rather crude and limited.

Please elaborate as I completely disagree with the statement you just made. Calling something crude and limited without explanation is not the way to go.

The tribes i mentioned would fight to the death to protect their society because the whole tribe is their family.

Considering that no such tribes (not in isolation) survived and became a civilization I am tempted to say that you are wrong.

The family unit that we are used to today is a byproduct of money.

That is completely incorrect. Money isn't the reason why a man would want to know which children are his. What you are saying is complete none-sense. The concept of family is older than the concept of money. There are still many tribal communities that have a strict family structure, yet, have no concept of money.

Once money is introduced into society then people get possesive and they want my money, my home, my woman, my child, my cattle, my car

There are many animals who are territorial. A male lion won't let other male lions mate with his women. Is that because of money too???

... where in the tribe everything was ours and nothing was mine.

So assuming another tribe comes in contact with it, would everything be divided equally, and the tribe would just grow? I don't think so. They would still be very territorial and not let strangers come into their "family". Chimpanzees actually display such behaviors towards strangers.

So, you are either advocating that all humans should become part of one "BIG" tribe where several billion people would practice "serial-monogamy"

Or, you are advocating that humans should live in small groups(tribes) isolated from the other tribes, and make sure they never come in contact with each other??

Most of the stress/mental disorders of today are a product of the unnatural way of life the "wage slave" and the stay at home momy roles imposed on people.

Those roles aren't imposed by people. Every man has to choice to become a father and every woman has to choice to become a mother. There is no conspiracy that forces men and women into traditional family roles. The traditional family is simply the most efficient structure that allows the proper raising of young children into productive adults. That is why it exists(and has existed) in every civilization, and that is why it is the most prevalent structure in most tribal societies still.

People are simply more versetile then that and versitility is what makes us human-it is what has allowed us to survive and thrive.

If there were examples of thriving civilizations that didn't depend on the traditional family structure, I would say that maybe you're right, but there aren't any, and there will never be.

The femanist examples you brought up have nothing to do with the conversation we are having.

Sure they do. Some of your comments imply that you are a proponent of women's liberation. I wanted to point out what some of the "big names" in the movement have said, and what were their motives behind the movement.

And now I ask you, given their true motives, do you really believe that any ideas, statistics, assumptions and conclusions that originate from these people should have any place in Armenia? Of coarse not.

i simply said placing needless limitations on people (male or female) is just counter productive and needless.

Well, indeed, needless limitations are needless; however, you fail to explain why what these limitations are and why are they needless.

Social customs are not limitations. Individual cases of not following the customs are still going to happen, but at least, as a whole the culture will be intact.

Armenia is already too homogenous and conservative for its own good.

Please explain why it is bad for Armenia to be homogeneous and conservative. I don't agree with your statement.

What it needs more then anything else is peace and security. If peace and security are achieved then the rest will fall into place.

I don't think we can achieve security if we lower the bar on what's considered moral behavior. I think a strict family unit will make sure that sons grow up to be men and daughters grow up to be women.

The whole narcistic culture which is spreading today all over the world is a direct product of judaism and its emphasis on self and thus selfishness.

The narcistic culture is spreading because there is more emphasis on self, that's correct. If there were more strict family values, then the emphasis would shift on the family unit, and the narcissism you speak of would become and isolated incidence.

For example, if a woman is put to shame for "choosing to become a single mom," very few women would make that choice. If a woman was put to shame for cheating on her husband (instead of being told "You poor girl, he didn't pay enough attention to you"), then that wouldn't be a common occurrence. If women were put to shame for initiating divorce and taking the kids away from their father then there wouldn't be a 50% divorce rate, and women wouldn't be initiating over 80% of the divorces.

I think family values and customs that encourage those values are the way to go (not tribal communities, where if one person gets and std, everybody will die because of "serial-monogamy")

People are meant to live in a tribal setting, being alone or even in a single family unit is not our natural form of existance. Sure we can exist in many different ways since people are versetile but these ways are not good for us.

Really, I guess the Sumers, the hittites, the greeks, egyptians, armenians, perisans, chinese, etc... missed the memo and decided a family structure is better. Crap, if only they had known, we all wouldn't have fathers and would live happily ever after.

The killer of the natural way of life for humanity is its own creation "MONEY". Once money is introduced into any tribal society they become poseesive self centered a holes and quickly abandon the tribe mentality. The resulting societies are not better, sure they may achieve more as far as technology etc but they totally destroy our humanity and turn people into money chasing idiots who forget that it is not the big house or the new car that makes us happy and fulfilled.

Money is just an extension of storing food for long periods of time. Money was introduced much later than the family unit and religion. I'm not sure how your argument makes any sense.

Money makes people lose touch with their own humanity and natural state of existance and it also makes people suseptible to control and manipulation.

Being naive makes one susceptible to control and manipulation and being naive isn't a byproduct of money.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Capitalism has done its damage and it comes as a very important part of the west culture. However, capitalism cannot be put down without a revolution and I for one do not think capitalism is the thing which we should put down nor we can put it down. Since we can't put down capitalism without having socialism we have to take other measures such as laws which will specifically spell out against such behavior. Already in Armenia the customs support these laws (e.g. women can't have sex before marriage) so laws will only be strengthening our sacred customs.

I guess hoping for a inteligent responce was too much on my part.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I believe the sickness your adressing is narcissism which is a natural outcome of a money based society. Capitolism is at its core a narcisstic concept and a country with this system will have narcisstic people. This disease is not limited in any way to women. There is a reason why people were way nicer to each other during the soviet days and are totally self involved today and that reason is money. Sure there was money during the soviet times to but life did not revolve around it like it does in a capitalistic society. If you want a better society with both men and women treating each other better then you have to change the economic system. Money will corrupt any society because it is about ownership. People are ill equiped to deal with ownership because it is not in our natural evolution and was introduced much later. People in tribal hunting and gathering societies did not own land nor anything or anyone else. Owning the land was a foreighn concept to them which is why the american indians were so easily duped into signing onesided treaties. Introducing a monitery system into a society effectively takes away the humanity of that society and quickly turns it into what we are experiencing today. The sad truth is that a society based on money will outcompete other forms of societies but it also guerantees its own collapse which is why every civilization using a monitery system has climaxed then faded into history. The monitery system provides a competative advantage but also dooms that same society to failure. We humans have invented money but our own invention has us chasing our own tails in a endless circle. We need to bring this endless chase to a stop if we ever hope to live like humans again. Untill then we will simply be chasing our own tales and living for money-not us. Women are no more at fault then the men are and restricting the rights of either one will never fix anything but it will create resentment and hate and everything else that comes along with it. It is very important to understand what the real problem is instead of chasing its symptoms.

Capitalism has done its damage and it comes as a very important part of the west culture. However, capitalism cannot be put down without a revolution and I for one do not think capitalism is the thing which we should put down nor we can put it down. Since we can't put down capitalism without having socialism we have to take other measures such as laws which will specifically spell out against such behavior. Already in Armenia the customs support these laws (e.g. women can't have sex before marriage) so laws will only be strengthening our sacred customs.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I believe the sickness your adressing is narcissism which is a natural outcome of a money based society. Capitolism is at its core a narcisstic concept and a country with this system will have narcisstic people. This disease is not limited in any way to women. There is a reason why people were way nicer to each other during the soviet days and are totally self involved today and that reason is money. Sure there was money during the soviet times to but life did not revolve around it like it does in a capitalistic society. If you want a better society with both men and women treating each other better then you have to change the economic system. Money will corrupt any society because it is about ownership. People are ill equiped to deal with ownership because it is not in our natural evolution and was introduced much later. People in tribal hunting and gathering societies did not own land nor anything or anyone else. Owning the land was a foreighn concept to them which is why the american indians were so easily duped into signing onesided treaties. Introducing a monitery system into a society effectively takes away the humanity of that society and quickly turns it into what we are experiencing today. The sad truth is that a society based on money will outcompete other forms of societies but it also guerantees its own collapse which is why every civilization using a monitery system has climaxed then faded into history. The monitery system provides a competative advantage but also dooms that same society to failure. We humans have invented money but our own invention has us chasing our own tails in a endless circle. We need to bring this endless chase to a stop if we ever hope to live like humans again. Untill then we will simply be chasing our own tales and living for money-not us. Women are no more at fault then the men are and restricting the rights of either one will never fix anything but it will create resentment and hate and everything else that comes along with it. It is very important to understand what the real problem is instead of chasing its symptoms.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Personally I think both parent's should be involved with their children. I don't agree with the mother staying at home/working all the time and the father going out to work and never spending much time with the children. It's terrible for a child growing up to have only one parent with them, or to have very little time with the parents at all and just be sent to daycare. Both my parents worked but had time to be with me, and especially since I was dyslexic without my parent's support I would have never learned how to read or write, let alone attend university.

women should be more involved with their children. Men have to work and can't be tied to the house all the time.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

That same statement goes for Mos to. Mos hates the Iranian society but he advocates turning Armenia into exactly that with the moral order and dresscode to boot. I guess he sees it justified since it would be the catoghicos instead of the mulah runing the show but i dont make any such distinction-they are all the same crap. The more limitations you start putting on society and people the more miserable life becomes-that is why people fight for freedom. Armenia is already too homogenous and conservative for its own good. What it needs more then anything else is peace and security. If peace and security are achieved then the rest will fall into place. The whole narcistic culture which is spreading today all over the world is a direct product of judaism and its emphasis on self and thus selfishness. People are meant to live in a tribal setting, being alone or even in a single family unit is not our natural form of existance. Sure we can exist in many different ways since people are versetile but these ways are not good for us.

First of all what I propose and what is present in Iran are two wholly different things. In Iran, it is a theocracy taken to a very extreme level. I'm not advocating theocracy, I'm advocating basic laws which will help guide women away from the worst corruptions that sicken many societies. Look at how many Armenian women have been sickened by the West abroad after having lived so many years.

[hipeter924]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Personally I think both parent's should be involved with their children. I don't agree with the mother staying at home/working all the time and the father going out to work and never spending much time with the children. It's terrible for a child growing up to have only one parent with them, or to have very little time with the parents at all and just be sent to daycare. Both my parents worked but had time to be with me, and especially since I was dyslexic without my parent's support I would have never learned how to read or write, let alone attend university.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Levon your understanding of society and the man/woman relations are rather crude and limited. The tribes i mentioned would fight to the death to protect their society because the whole tribe is their family. The family unit that we are used to today is a byproduct of money. Once money is introduced into society then people get possesive and they want my money, my home, my woman, my child, my cattle, my car... where in the tribe everything was ours and nothing was mine. Most of the stress/mental disorders of today are a product of the unnatural way of life the "wage slave" and the stay at home momy roles imposed on people. People are simply more versetile then that and versitility is what makes us human-it is what has allowed us to survive and thrive. The femanist examples you brought up have nothing to do with the conversation we are having. I never advocated for anything violent, i simply said placing needless limitations on people (male or female) is just counter productive and needless. That same statement goes for Mos to. Mos hates the Iranian society but he advocates turning Armenia into exactly that with the moral order and dresscode to boot. I guess he sees it justified since it would be the catoghicos instead of the mulah runing the show but i dont make any such distinction-they are all the same crap. The more limitations you start putting on society and people the more miserable life becomes-that is why people fight for freedom. Armenia is already too homogenous and conservative for its own good. What it needs more then anything else is peace and security. If peace and security are achieved then the rest will fall into place. The whole narcistic culture which is spreading today all over the world is a direct product of judaism and its emphasis on self and thus selfishness. People are meant to live in a tribal setting, being alone or even in a single family unit is not our natural form of existance. Sure we can exist in many different ways since people are versetile but these ways are not good for us. The killer of the natural way of life for humanity is its own creation "MONEY". Once money is introduced into any tribal society they become poseesive self centered a holes and quickly abandon the tribe mentality. The resulting societies are not better, sure they may achieve more as far as technology etc but they totally destroy our humanity and turn people into money chasing idiots who forget that it is not the big house or the new car that makes us happy and fulfilled. Money makes people lose touch with their own humanity and natural state of existance and it also makes people suseptible to control and manipulation. It is interesting how humanity falls victim to its own creation (be it money, family, religion..) and if one could look at it with objectivity, as a unconserned party, i think it would even be a funny observation.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Armenian race has gotten through a lot, probably more than any other race. It is a miracle and by God's grace that we exist as a people today. A pure miracle. We cannot just let ourselves go at this point, we cannot let our people degrade themselves abroad. We've gotten to far, our ancestors have sacrificed so much, just so we can be Chrisitan and call ourselves "Hye" today. And it breaks my heart when I see Armenians both in Yerevan but mostly abroad throwing that to oneside and forgetting all this. Just submitting themselves to the western society. Forgetting their culture, disrespecting their families. We need better education and we need to somehow restore these fundamental family values back into our youth soon to become youth. God willing we can achieve this.