Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Well i am glad atleast one woman came out in her own defence finely. Levon you have a lot to learn along with the other racist/sexists here. I dont think it is ever too late for people to change so i hope atleast some of you will. Instead of focusing on differences (the favorit passtime of both racists and sexists) it is much more productive to remember what we all have in comon.

WOW, it ALL makes sense. Looks like you grow up in the USA, no wonder you never learned that if you're a man, don't cuss another man unless it's to his face. Well, in the "old country" that's the very first thing you learn. I am really sorry you never had to opportunity to learn that first hand.

I dont think it is ever too late for people to change so i hope atleast some of you will.

Great idea. You can follow your advice then tells us all the secrets of how to change.

My father died rather young and my mother supported me and my sister because my dad did everything he could to make sure she achieved her potential. When my mom said she was studying to become a doctor in the USA-the hetamnats armenian houswives laughed at her but she did it because my father who was a surgeon in the old country worked his ass off in a factory so she could pass her exams and get her license. When my mom got her license the hetamnats housewives said ooo she is a doctor now so she will now leave her husband. Again they were wrong as most ignorent people usually are.

I guess you really hate housewives. Guess your a "sexist" as well, since the majority of the worlds female population are housewives.

I found it rather disturbing even as a child that they thought this way but it is a good example of what ignorence does to people. Those ladies had lived in the usa a full 20 years before my mom got there and they still didnt know how to write a chek or drive a car yet here was my mom a partner in a successful medical practice.

Well, women who can get others to do everything for them are just as smart as women who do everything for themselves. It's just the former requires more effort in seduction and cunning. Nothing wrong with that, after all, the foundation of a successful business is to hire people to do stuff for you, pay the much less than the profit they bring for your company and keep the rest for yourself.
So in a sense, those "ignorant housewives" very like very successful businessmen.

I can see where people get some of the bad ideas about women from, many women do act like what levon describes. When i was young i went to all the agbu/ayf events, i was a athelete so i played in the olympics and basketball/softball tournaments for the detroit teams. At these parties i tried to meet young armenian women but this was the dialogue me-"hi what is your name?" girl-"my name is "whatever name you wana insert" what do you do?" -me-"I am a sophomore in U of M" after that some just walked away without even saying anything while others simply made smalltalk then walked away. These girls were looking for a guy who already had it made and werent willing to take a chance on someone even if that person was going to a good school. It is easy to see how the sexist attitudes here can evolve from such experiences and i guess i am lucky since i had better role models as my parents who taught me better.

It was not easy or quick but i did eventually find the right woman for me. I supported us while she got her master degree and now she is doing the same while i get mine. I still work but business has been horrible last couple years and its hard going to school and running a business at the same time plus being a father and a husband. Life is not always predictable so it is good to be prepaired. Should anything happen to me or my wife we know that the surviving spouse will not only take care of her/himself but the childeren as well. Had my father not been supportive of my mothers career i dought my sister and i would have gotten the education we have and no one really knows what would have happened to our family.

I think any man who will ever want to start a family cannot have bad attitudes towards woman as only a lunatic would let someone he hates raise his children. I don't think Armenian men are lunatics. Do you..?

Looks like you approached those women assuming they found your intellect attractive. Had you not tried to hide your true intention (which was most certainly fornication) you might have enjoyed more success.

I had a few similar experiences. But I didn't develop negative attitudes, I just changed my approach. Don't worry, my ideas don't come from any female shortages. I've been married for two years. And funny enough, I'm paying for her master's degree, but I've made it clear to her. When we have kids, she'll quit playing career girl until our children are old enough to form their own opinions, before then I entrust her with culturing them with good, solid family values.

I think you immediately assume that family values mean women cannot have any skills nor brains. That's American feminazi b.s for you. Well, it's never too late for people to change.

--
On a side note:

I'm glad you've found a good balance in your family, that's great. This is an honest compliment as marriage and family are the most important decisions a man can make, as it give him children or destroys his entire life. One area of life where mistakes aren't tolerated.

The point is women can serve their families better if they are empowered and there is no reason to place limitations on them. Just like anyone else there are good and bad women and if you encounter the bad ones just remind yoourself that there are good ones out there to and keep looking. One of the good things about the soviet union was that decent education was available to all including women-thats why many women from Armenia are educated and our country needs them to be as productive as they can be.

Empowering women has many different meanings depending on the feminist in question. If by empowering you mean the ability to work, then don't worry, no one in Armenia keeps women from doing that; however, there are many other meanings of empowered that I find disgusting in a woman. Go figure.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Let my underpowered brain explain this to you. First off, 5 points is not much... 2nd that difference can be easily understood and explained if you understood what IQ tests measure.
It is related to the reason why IQ is constantly rising and why these tests have to be renormed every few years. They measure abstract thinking above other things. That kind of thinking is learned, which is why IQ is rising. Fifty years ago, this kind of thought was not valued and it was not taught. So, your IQ on these tests would be higher than that of your parents, but it is not because you are smarter per se. So, a slight difference on average (assuming there is of course) can be explained by this and so can the difference at 155 level as well. Further, when you get to IQs of 155 you're talking about the 99.99th or so percentile, thus we're talking about a very very small group of people.

I never said you have an underpowered brain, but if you insist....

These researchers don't sound very credible and I have not yet looked up the article (not yet published) nor their research histories, but I will. The reason, is they make some mistakes such as the explanation according to brain size. That would not explain much variation because the number of dendtritic connections is far more important than sheer volume. Further, British Journal of Psychology is not a highly ranked journal and people try to publish in the best journal they can get their work published in, so this already makes me skeptical, but I will look up their study and go over their methodology with a fine-toothed comb.

Great job, discredit the researchers to discredit their research. Straw-man argument.....???

The other article you posted about the differences in number of neurons in the limbic system, particularly the amygdala is irrelevant. That doesn't have implications for intelligence. That just shows that yes, men and women are different (which I said previously), but different does not mean better or worse.

Why is it irrelevant and why the difference does not matter? But wait, differences bring fourth advantages and disadvantages, if you assume women and men are different then you acknowledge the fact there will be things that would bring disadvantage to women compared to men, and vice-versa. Wouldn't this make equality impossible...? Unless your kind of equality is something else....?

Allowing women into politics, government, and the military, is hardly playing games with culture.

Ok, let me rephrase. Armenia has neither the resources nor the population to carry out experiments with cultural revolutions...

I did read it. And if you had bothered to read my post carefully you would have noticed that I said IF women can manage both, they should go for it.

Again, you didn't get what I said. The story was meant to illustrate that in order for women to gain exactly the same rights as men, they should have exactly the same responsibilities.

Quit being so defensive. Not everything is a veiled insult toward you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQZmCJUSC6g

You described attributes and attributed those to pig-heads. Attributes that Haykakan has been trying hard to put my name on.

There's your ego again... You do realize my post was not solely directed at you right?

Nothing wrong with having an ego, but you did quote my name, commented on my "anecdote" and proceeded with your own tangent. Seems like your post was a semi-direct reply to mine. You could make it more clear so as to avoid more confusion.

Besides, I didn't imply that anyone thought women should be simple-minded baby making machines.

Sure you did. Forget your own posts?

We don't need to restrict women to the home guys. They can contribute valuable things to society

Since no one has said anything like that, it's only natural you assumed someone here thinks like that.

My crazy ego? You shared an anecdote and I did the same. How is your example about your friend's uncle relevant and worthy, but my example is not? The fact that in the 6 years I've been on this forum, I haven't said these things should be a testament to the fact that my intent was not in the least bit to promote myself or stroke my ego.

An anecdote...? I guess your accomplishments were an anecdote like my fictional story, and not self-promotion...? OK, if you say so. At least you're honest.

Armenian culture produces better parents then? Shall we talk about child abuse? How about the attitudes toward disabilities that leads parents to abandon as orphans their children over something so simple and easily corrected as a cleft palate?

Sources please. I know for a fact that Armenian parents don't produce nearly as many bastard kids per capita as American parents (It's over 35% in America). Lets not even start with crack-babies, women with children from multiple fathers, and the crazy abortion rates. Something just says many American women don't want to know responsibilities. Armenian parents are on a different level.

And by child abuse do you mean a woman that chops up her kids in a bathtub, or a man that kills his whole family because his wife decides to divorce him and take away his kids? Don't think that happens in Armenia.

Children with disabilities is an issue for another discussion. Please, provide a reference supporting your claims. I have never heard of that before, I am sure there may have been isolated cases, but it's not a problem in Armenia.

You didn't say that women shouldn't have careers and praise your friend's uncle for not allowing his sister to work?

No, I didn't say that. I said his mother decided it was better for his son if his mother was around him more, and his uncle decided he needs to support his sister so she can better take care of her son.

However yet again, not everything is a reply to your comments.

Then be more specific as I cannot read your mind.

Okay, not that we've established that not everything I say is directed to you, let us learn something different. Not everything posted must for the purpose of disputing a point that has already been made. People can actually post new things that have to do with the general subject of the thread.

The general subject of the thread was NOT a discussion about whether women should be kept uneducated, inactive and used for home duties, but most of your post simply argued against those points.

And lastly, I was respectful in my initial comment and you replied to me in a belligerent and condescending tone.

Belligerent and condescending..? Big words, why not stop hiding behind fancy words and just come out and call me "hostile and arrogant."

I suggest you rethink that approach or you won't last long here. You can make your points without talking to people that way.

Please, your Highness, don't make me go. I dooon't waaant tooo gooo.
I see nothing wrong with my approach, but I appreciate the fact that you give me your opinion.

As you have seen by the end of this post since I did it to you, it's not very nice.

I think it's fun to put a bit of your own person into an argument. You didn't offend me in any way. I always find it amusing to see how women can get creative with me when the issue of feminism comes up. Trust me, compared to other women you've so far acted like an angel, so to quote Ali-G, "Respect"

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

people should stop really stop spreading this western idealism/democracy in all elements of life. What is the really priority of the Armenian race is to reproduce. Look at europe, the birth rate is extremely low while that of turks and other muslims is skyrocketing. If we don't dramatically increase our birth rate similar thing will happen to us. Already, in Artsakh incentives are given to couples who have more than 5 children (apartment, money, etc). If we get caught up upon women's rights, women liberation, this and that, we can't achieve this very necessary task. After education and after finding a good partner Armenian women need to reproduce to add fast to the Armenian race so we do not die out.

What you are reproducing is as important as reproducing. I dont want Armenia to be full of racist/sexist people. I want a homeland i can be proud of not ashamed.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Well i am glad atleast one woman came out in her own defence finely. Levon you have a lot to learn along with the other racist/sexists here. I dont think it is ever too late for people to change so i hope atleast some of you will. Instead of focusing on differences (the favorit passtime of both racists and sexists) it is much more productive to remember what we all have in comon. My father died rather young and my mother supported me and my sister because my dad did everything he could to make sure she achieved her potential. When my mom said she was studying to become a doctor in the USA-the hetamnats armenian houswives laughed at her but she did it because my father who was a surgeon in the old country worked his ass off in a factory so she could pass her exams and get her license. When my mom got her license the hetamnats housewives said ooo she is a doctor now so she will now leave her husband. Again they were wrong as most ignorent people usually are. I found it rather disturbing even as a child that they thought this way but it is a good example of what ignorence does to people. Those ladies had lived in the usa a full 20 years before my mom got there and they still didnt know how to write a chek or drive a car yet here was my mom a partner in a successful medical practice. I can see where people get some of the bad ideas about women from, many women do act like what levon describes. When i was young i went to all the agbu/ayf events, i was a athelete so i played in the olympics and basketball/softball tournaments for the detroit teams. At these parties i tried to meet young armenian women but this was the dialogue me-"hi what is your name?" girl-"my name is "whatever name you wana insert" what do you do?" -me-"I am a sophomore in U of M" after that some just walked away without even saying anything while others simply made smalltalk then walked away. These girls were looking for a guy who already had it made and werent willing to take a chance on someone even if that person was going to a good school. It is easy to see how the sexist attitudes here can evolve from such experiences and i guess i am lucky since i had better role models as my parents who taught me better. It was not easy or quick but i did eventually find the right woman for me. I supported us while she got her master degree and now she is doing the same while i get mine. I still work but business has been horrible last couple years and its hard going to school and running a business at the same time plus being a father and a husband. Life is not always predictable so it is good to be prepaired. Should anything happen to me or my wife we know that the surviving spouse will not only take care of her/himself but the childeren as well. Had my father not been supportive of my mothers career i dought my sister and i would have gotten the education we have and no one really knows what would have happened to our family. The point is women can serve their families better if they are empowered and there is no reason to place limitations on them. Just like anyone else there are good and bad women and if you encounter the bad ones just remind yoourself that there are good ones out there to and keep looking. One of the good things about the soviet union was that decent education was available to all including women-thats why many women from Armenia are educated and our country needs them to be as productive as they can be.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

people should stop really stop spreading this western idealism/democracy in all elements of life. What is the really priority of the Armenian race is to reproduce. Look at europe, the birth rate is extremely low while that of turks and other muslims is skyrocketing. If we don't dramatically increase our birth rate similar thing will happen to us. Already, in Artsakh incentives are given to couples who have more than 5 children (apartment, money, etc). If we get caught up upon women's rights, women liberation, this and that, we can't achieve this very necessary task. After education and after finding a good partner Armenian women need to reproduce to add fast to the Armenian race so we do not die out.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Please state your sources that claim men and women have equal intelligence towards the same tasks.
Emotional Wiring Different in Men and Women

http://www.livescience.com/health/060419_brain_wiring.html

Men outnumbered women in increasing numbers as intelligence levels rise. There were twice as many with IQ scores of 125, a level typical for people with first-class degrees.

When scores rose to 155, a level associated with genius, there were 5.5 men for every woman.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article558743.ece

Let my underpowered brain explain this to you. First off, 5 points is not much... 2nd that difference can be easily understood and explained if you understood what IQ tests measure.
It is related to the reason why IQ is constantly rising and why these tests have to be renormed every few years. They measure abstract thinking above other things. That kind of thinking is learned, which is why IQ is rising. Fifty years ago, this kind of thought was not valued and it was not taught. So, your IQ on these tests would be higher than that of your parents, but it is not because you are smarter per se. So, a slight difference on average (assuming there is of course) can be explained by this and so can the difference at 155 level as well. Further, when you get to IQs of 155 you're talking about the 99.99th or so percentile, thus we're talking about a very very small group of people.

These researchers don't sound very credible and I have not yet looked up the article (not yet published) nor their research histories, but I will. The reason, is they make some mistakes such as the explanation according to brain size. That would not explain much variation because the number of dendtritic connections is far more important than sheer volume. Further, British Journal of Psychology is not a highly ranked journal and people try to publish in the best journal they can get their work published in, so this already makes me skeptical, but I will look up their study and go over their methodology with a fine-toothed comb.
The other article you posted about the differences in number of neurons in the limbic system, particularly the amygdala is irrelevant. That doesn't have implications for intelligence. That just shows that yes, men and women are different (which I said previously), but different does not mean better or worse.

No one can do that; however, Armenia neither has the resources nor the population to let people play games with our culture.

Allowing women into politics, government, and the military, is hardly playing games with culture.

responsibilities[/I] come BEFORE rights. And privilege has to be removed BEFORE responsibilities can be given.

I did read it. And if you had bothered to read my post carefully you would have noticed that I said IF women can manage both, they should go for it.

I'm guessing you're indirectly calling me pigheaded. Way to go with the personal insults.

Quit being so defensive. Not everything is a veiled insult toward you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQZmCJUSC6g

I don't recall ever saying that women should be simple minded baby-machines. Please limit your reply's to what I say, not what you think I would say.

There's your ego again... You do realize my post was not solely directed at you right?
Besides, I didn't imply that anyone thought women should be simple-minded baby making machines.

I'm happy that you've lead an active life and gotten an education. Again, I don't recall myself or others stating that women should stay home inactive and grow up without an education. On a side note, bringing personal examples hardly counts as an argument. I'm sure the above makes your ego very inflated as you feel so very independent and modern. Again congrats. But it has nothing to do with my argument.

I argue for keeping family values, and I'm not sure what you're arguing about.

My crazy ego? You shared an anecdote and I did the same. How is your example about your friend's uncle relevant and worthy, but my example is not? The fact that in the 6 years I've been on this forum, I haven't said these things should be a testament to the fact that my intent was not in the least bit to promote myself or stroke my ego.

Again, congratulations, however, those same "crazy" western values have produced many many women (and as a result men) that are not fit to be parents of any kind. Exceptions to the rule don't make an argument.

Armenian culture produces better parents then? Shall we talk about child abuse? How about the attitudes toward disabilities that leads parents to abandon as orphans their children over something so simple and easily corrected as a cleft palate?

Again, I don't recall ever stating that women should be restricted to the home. Family values don't dictate women to stay home. Look at Gegev's post that elegantly outlines the traditional outlooks on parenting, which are an integral part of family values (and recommended by doctors).

You didn't say that women shouldn't have careers and praise your friend's uncle for not allowing his sister to work?

However yet again, not everything is a reply to your comments.

Still another time, you are rebuking statements that none of us posted. I'm not sure who you're arguing with anymore.

Okay, not that we've established that not everything I say is directed to you, let us learn something different. Not everything posted must for the purpose of disputing a point that has already been made. People can actually post new things that have to do with the general subject of the thread.


And lastly, I was respectful in my initial comment and you replied to me in a belligerent and condescending tone. I suggest you rethink that approach or you won't last long here. You can make your points without talking to people that way. As you have seen by the end of this post since I did it to you, it's not very nice.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.



Pictures from her blog

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

See here is where it annoys me again, you assume that I meant tribal, we never called ourselves Aztecs as an Empire, we called ourselves Mexica, the Aztecs left Southwest US (AZTLAN!) and moved into the Valley of Mexico, intermarrying with other Nahuatls and Mayans to become the Mexica Empire, which was mostly Nahuatl linguistically, the law stated women were equal to men

http://www.plu.edu/~schockak/role-wife/home.html

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Mexica did not make have division of labour and cooking and child rearing was oft assisted by the men, in addition women could study exactly what men could and were able to have a role in politics, the same is true for most Mesoamericans, in addition many Pueblo Indians take matrilinical stances and the women's surname is taken, just saying.

Before landed property, the woman's role was higher than men as you could always tell who the mom was, but the father was a tricky one in society

What you are mentioning are tribal communities, not civilizations. Aztecs, Mayans, as well as Olmecs considered women as subordinates of men. In tribal communities where a family structure doesn't exists are usually based on matriarchies. And none of these societies have ever progressed to the become a civilization before establishing a traditional family structure.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

C'mon guys. I think we're mixing up a few things here.

Lastly, we need to distinguish between equality in rights and equality in other abilities.
Of course, men and women are different in many respects (not in intelligence though). This does not mean that they cannot enjoy equal rights.

Please state your sources that claim men and women have equal intelligence towards the same tasks.
Emotional Wiring Different in Men and Women

http://www.livescience.com/health/060419_brain_wiring.html

Men outnumbered women in increasing numbers as intelligence levels rise. There were twice as many with IQ scores of 125, a level typical for people with first-class degrees.

When scores rose to 155, a level associated with genius, there were 5.5 men for every woman.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article558743.ece

You can not attribute all of what happens in western society to any singular characteristic of that society. That's absurd. You can't say that Armenia will turn into that if 1 single characteristic is applied.

No one can do that; however, Armenia neither has the resources nor the population to let people play games with our culture.

Levon... Wow. What a nice strawman and woman couple you built there. Just because you can write a nice work of fiction like that doesn't mean that it is actually a reflection of reality. Are there actually couples like that out there? I'm sure you could find a few. But if that's the case, then that woman is just a selfish person period. It's not caused by anything else.

I'm guessing you, as well as Haykakan didn't bother to read where I mentioned the moral of the story.
As I stated, responsibilities come BEFORE rights. And privilege has to be removed BEFORE responsibilities can be given.

My father is about as "manly" the stereotype as they come, but he has never been that pigheaded as to handicap his wife and daughter.

I'm guessing you're indirectly calling me pigheaded. Way to go with the personal insults.

He wants her to be able to take care of herself and the family in the event that something should happen to him. How'd he treat his daughter? He never told me I couldn't do anything because I'm a girl. He spared no expense if it was for books or school. He let me be his assistant when he did home improvement/repair stuff. And he let me saw scrap wood and nail stuff together in the garage when I asked if I could. I know the names of most tools and I know how to use them.

I don't recall ever saying that women should be simple minded baby-machines. Please limit your reply's to what I say, not what you think I would say.

I played basketball instead of being encouraged to enroll in dance classes instead. I'm not completely lost when it comes to cars: when I look under the hood of a car I have a good idea what's what, I can check fluids, and I can change a tire. When I asked if I could get a job when I turned 16, they were supportive. I have worked the entire time I have been in school though my parents could have supported me. It taught me the value of money and gave me an appreciation about the expenses involved in adult life (I made my car and insurance payments, paid for my gas, clothing, etc). He always taught me not to rely on others; he'd say (in Armenian, if you're familiar with the expression), if you fall, you put your hand on your knee and stand up.
How did I turn out? I completed my BA in 3 years, got a Masters, while in that program at just within a couple months of turning 22, I taught my first class at a university. I have been teaching a class each year since then (it's now almost 7 years later). I finished my MA and got into a top ranked doctoral program that is halfway across the country. Because I had learned to be independent, there was no concern about my moving away. I moved and live on my own. I take care of my rent and living expenses myself. Now, I have a second master's degree (not the one on-route to the PhD for you academics who are wondering) and am in the dissertation phase of my PhD.

I'm happy that you've lead an active life and gotten an education. Again, I don't recall myself or others stating that women should stay home inactive and grow up without an education. On a side note, bringing personal examples hardly counts as an argument. I'm sure the above makes your ego very inflated as you feel so very independent and modern. Again congrats. But it has nothing to do with my argument.

I argue for keeping family values, and I'm not sure what you're arguing about.

Do you think any of this has made me a worse person? I grew up in the US with those "crazy" western values all around me and parents who didn't force traditional gender roles on me and I think I turned out just fine.
I still want a family and I will take care of them while I have a career. There's no reason why it needs to be a choice if women are able to make it work so that neither their career nor their performance as a parent suffer.

Again, congratulations, however, those same "crazy" western values have produced many many women (and as a result men) that are not fit to be parents of any kind. Exceptions to the rule don't make an argument.

We don't need to restrict women to the home guys. They can contribute valuable things to society. We need not only think of rules of countries as Pedro has pointed out, but we can look in any number of fields. Women in Armenia can contribute greatly to the conditions in Armenia. That will make it a better place not only for their children, but all children there.
Keeping a woman restricted to a domestic role, handicaps her. What if the husband dies as in example (was it levon's? hye's?) and there is no uncle who can provide? What would happen then? She'd have to be a maid or a cook to try to make out a modest living? I found the claim that had the uncle not stepped in, his son's would not have grown up as "men" highly insulting. How can you say that with a straight face? All male children grow up lacking in some way if raised by just their mothers? Sure, male role models are important! The uncle could have been a male role-model even if he wasn't the financial provider.

Again, I don't recall ever stating that women should be restricted to the home. Family values don't dictate women to stay home. Look at Gegev's post that elegantly outlines the traditional outlooks on parenting, which are an integral part of family values (and recommended by doctors).

Even in the majority of cases, where that won't happen, her children will grow up folks. Then what? Then that woman has no skills, no job, nothing. She's supposed to sit at home day after day and do what?
If we love our women, should we not want them to feel fulfilled? We should allow them to choice; if they don't want a career, fine, but if they do want a career, they should not be denied that opportunity either.

Still another time, you are rebuking statements that none of us posted. I'm not sure who you're arguing with anymore.