Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

WOW, it ALL makes sense. Looks like you grow up in the USA, no wonder you never learned that if you're a man, don't cuss another man unless it's to his face. Well, in the "old country" that's the very first thing you learn. I am really sorry you never had to opportunity to learn that first hand.




Great idea. You can follow your advice then tells us all the secrets of how to change.




I guess you really hate housewives. Guess your a "sexist" as well, since the majority of the worlds female population are housewives.



Well, women who can get others to do everything for them are just as smart as women who do everything for themselves. It's just the former requires more effort in seduction and cunning. Nothing wrong with that, after all, the foundation of a successful business is to hire people to do stuff for you, pay the much less than the profit they bring for your company and keep the rest for yourself.
So in a sense, those "ignorant housewives" very like very successful businessmen.



I think any man who will ever want to start a family cannot have bad attitudes towards woman as only a lunatic would let someone he hates raise his children. I don't think Armenian men are lunatics. Do you..?

Looks like you approached those women assuming they found your intellect attractive. Had you not tried to hide your true intention (which was most certainly fornication) you might have enjoyed more success.

I had a few similar experiences. But I didn't develop negative attitudes, I just changed my approach. Don't worry, my ideas don't come from any female shortages. I've been married for two years. And funny enough, I'm paying for her master's degree, but I've made it clear to her. When we have kids, she'll quit playing career girl until our children are old enough to form their own opinions, before then I entrust her with culturing them with good, solid family values.

I think you immediately assume that family values mean women cannot have any skills nor brains. That's American feminazi b.s for you. Well, it's never too late for people to change.

--
On a side note:

I'm glad you've found a good balance in your family, that's great. This is an honest compliment as marriage and family are the most important decisions a man can make, as it give him children or destroys his entire life. One area of life where mistakes aren't tolerated.



Empowering women has many different meanings depending on the feminist in question. If by empowering you mean the ability to work, then don't worry, no one in Armenia keeps women from doing that; however, there are many other meanings of empowered that I find disgusting in a woman. Go figure.

Are you for real? You describe me as a fornicator then say your happy i found balanace. You say you have been married for two years like its some accomplishment. Add another 10 years to that and a 5 yearold kid and i know a lot more about family then you or the rest of the sexist clowns here-and yes you definetly belong in that group. I have no problem saying all of this to your face.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I never said you have an underpowered brain, but if you insist....

I'd tell you my IQ, but I don't want to brag. Seriously though, let's be civil. I told you I wasn't insulting you with that pigheaded comment (which actually isn't like calling someone a pig at all), so don't insult me.

Great job, discredit the researchers to discredit their research. Straw-man argument.....???

It's not a strawman. If the things they assert in the quotes from the article are not sound, then it makes me wonder what the quality of their research is. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to wonder about. However, notice I said that A,B, and C make me skeptical and I would look at the article when it was published and I did not draw a conclusion about it.

Why is it irrelevant and why the difference does not matter? But wait, differences bring fourth advantages and disadvantages, if you assume women and men are different then you acknowledge the fact there will be things that would bring disadvantage to women compared to men, and vice-versa. Wouldn't this make equality impossible...? Unless your kind of equality is something else....?

You know you had your mind made up to disagree with me and have an attitude about it from the start. You had clashed with others in this thread, but I had not said boo to you and you jumped on me from the start. Why? You shouldn't jump to conclusions.

I believe I was clear, but I will say it again. Equal opportunity! Women should have the opportunity to pursue careers and to do so in the field of their choosing. If they're qualified, they're qualified and their sex is irrelevant.

You may cling to this 5 point difference (again assuming it isn't a spurious finding), but in reality a mere 5 point difference doesn't tell you anything useful about the average man or woman. You can't say with any meaningful confidence that any woman selected at random from the population is less intelligent than any man selected at random. There is just too much overlap in those distributions.

Again, you didn't get what I said. The story was meant to illustrate that in order for women to gain exactly the same rights as men, they should have exactly the same responsibilities.

What responsibilities are those? Does that mean men will also have child rearing responsibilities or does that mean that women must have the same responsibilities that men have, but that men don't need to have the same responsibilities that women have? I'm not sure what you're suggesting.

You described attributes and attributed those to pig-heads. Attributes that Haykakan has been trying hard to put my name on.

That's between you and Haykakan then, but I was not calling you any names.

Nothing wrong with having an ego, but you did quote my name, commented on my "anecdote" and proceeded with your own tangent. Seems like your post was a semi-direct reply to mine. You could make it more clear so as to avoid more confusion.

It's absurd to suggest that I should preface everything I say with a comment about whether it's directed at your or not.

Sure you did. Forget your own posts?

We don't need to restrict women to the home guys. They can contribute valuable things to society

Since no one has said anything like that, it's only natural you assumed someone here thinks like that.

You are reading something into my posts that's not there because you made up your mind that you disagree with everything I say before even reading what I have to say. Way to be objective. What I am saying is regarding the original post and what I have said previously. Giving women opportunities in politics, government, and just any field basically, is good because they can contribute to these fields.
And yes, saying that they shouldn't be in military, government, etc is not the same as saying they shouldn't have a career, and while some may agree that women can have careers and a family, but think they should stay out of some fields, jobs, etc, I do not think that you would deny that there are also some people who think women should not work outside of the home. I do not need to be believe that someone who has posted in this thread has that belief. There are lots of people who read, but don't post and there are more still who happen upon these threads via search engines who are not even members. So, to suggest that I shouldn't say that unless I have evidence that someone here, whatever that encompasses, is absurd.

An anecdote...? I guess your accomplishments were an anecdote like my fictional story, and not self-promotion...? OK, if you say so. At least you're honest.

You didn't know the first thing about me, you should have held off on the judgments.

Sources please. I know for a fact that Armenian parents don't produce nearly as many bastard kids per capita as American parents (It's over 35% in America). Lets not even start with crack-babies, women with children from multiple fathers, and the crazy abortion rates. Something just says many American women don't want to know responsibilities. Armenian parents are on a different level.

And by child abuse do you mean a woman that chops up her kids in a bathtub, or a man that kills his whole family because his wife decides to divorce him and take away his kids? Don't think that happens in Armenia.

Children with disabilities is an issue for another discussion. Please, provide a reference supporting your claims. I have never heard of that before, I am sure there may have been isolated cases, but it's not a problem in Armenia.

Looks it's not necessary to bring up crack heads and such. I am just saying that we cannot pretend that Armenia is without problems. We need to open our eyes. On the whole it may be better, sure, but there are some very shameful things going on still that need fixing. Better than western culture is not necessarily good enough. It doesn't mean that we can use drug addicts and the mentally ill as a comparison and conclude that everything's just rosy in Armenia. It's not. As for the evidence... I believe Fed has addressed that point. There's no report or anything to point to, but there are people who are engaged in charitable endeavors in Armenia who visit these orphanages and are in contact with the staff there who see the parents who give up their children and listen to the reasons they give for doing so. For instance, a common one, is a worry that people will discriminate against their "normal" children if they have a handicapped child at home because they will assume there is something wrong with all of their children. Education about the nature, causes, treatment, etc of disabilities seems to be lacking.
We can't turn a blind eye to these kinds of things and pretend they aren't there. We need to face the fact that they exist in order to start working to correct them.

No, I didn't say that. I said his mother decided it was better for his son if his mother was around him more, and his uncle decided he needs to support his sister so she can better take care of her son.

That's not exactly what you said and I'm not sure how mom being at home more would make him a "man." If the children were school aged, the mom could have worked part-time or something, and the uncle could help out as well and she would still be around. Anyway, you said he didn't "allow" her to work which communicated something than (based on your clarification) what you intended, so this is really a moot point.

Then be more specific as I cannot read your mind.


The general subject of the thread was NOT a discussion about whether women should be kept uneducated, inactive and used for home duties, but most of your post simply argued against those points.

I think I explained above what I meant. I mean that (1) we should rethink some of the gender roles, and that allowing women to depart from them does not mean that they will become depraved people who will not want to have and care for a family and (2) that we can benefit by giving women opportunities in traditionally male dominated fields.

Belligerent and condescending..? Big words, why not stop hiding behind fancy words and just come out and call me "hostile and arrogant."

Belligerent and condescending are not more fancy than hostile or arrogant, they're just shorter. The length of a word is not a gauge of its sophistication. Anyhow, I'm not hiding behind anything. I said what I meant, and despite what you may be inclined to believe, I don't sit here and rewrite things to pack in advanced vocabulary or consult a thesaurus. That's just how I speak and I don't think I have a particularly good vocabulary anyway.

Please, your Highness, don't make me go. I dooon't waaant tooo gooo.
I see nothing wrong with my approach, but I appreciate the fact that you give me your opinion.

I meant that if you take things personally when someone has a different opinion than yours you will react defensively as you did, and it will escalate things and turn into insult hurling. You did this when you read my post, decided I was insulting you, and then implied that I have a big ego, that my post was vacuous and simply an attempt to brag about my accomplishments. And let's not forget the part above where you turned my sarcasm into an opportunity to insult my intelligence. My point was that if this is how you approach the situation when someone expresses an opinion incongruent with yours, you will be drawn to personal insults, which will inevitably lead to being suspended or eventually banned from the forum. So, before getting nasty with me and calling me "your highness" and the like, please take a breath and review the assumptions that lead you down that path because, I assure you, I possess none of those negative qualities or motives which you have ascribed to me. I hope we can start anew, be able to disagree, and still engage in a polite exchange.

I think it's fun to put a bit of your own person into an argument. You didn't offend me in any way. I always find it amusing to see how women can get creative with me when the issue of feminism comes up. Trust me, compared to other women you've so far acted like an angel, so to quote Ali-G, "Respect"

No comment other than to say be careful not to assume I subscribe to an identical set of beliefs that you associate with "feminists" as we have only discussed a couple of things at most.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Sadly I have heard of these cases as well and it is saddening because many of these kids are mentally sharp. In fact, there's an orphanage in Gyumri (Zatik orphanage) just for these kinds of children who are abandoned by their families because of their physical or mental disabilities. Here are pictures of some of these kids at this orphanage.

For those who spew hatred at soviet times just compare that society-where orphanages werent even needed, to the one today full of abandoned childeren.It will be a loong time before we get that standard of living again in Hayastan if we ever do get it at all.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Here is what you wrote that implied a tribal society



Pueblo Indians are essentially a tribal people.



This was true in tribal societies before a civilization existed.



Quote from wikipedia
The Mexica (Nahuatl: Mēxihcah, pronounced [meːˈʃiʔkaʔ]) or Mexicans (Spanish: Mexicanos) were an indigenous people of the Valley of Mexico, known today as the rulers of the Aztec empire. The Mexica were a Nahua people who founded their two cities Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco on raised islets in Lake Texcoco around AD 1200. After the rise of the Tenochca Mexica they came to dominate the other Mexica citystate Tlatelolco.



Thanks for the interesting article. It nicely puts that the societies mentioned (Aztec and Mayan) had very traditional family values (very much similar to those in other parts of the world).

Wikipedia is incorrect there, we called ourselves Mexica after moving out of Aztlan, Aztec, Aztlan, see the connection, the land was founded by Tenoch and Huitzilopochtli, who named it Tenochtitlan.

The societies were not traditional in your sense if you read, women were free to work any type of job and study what they want. Carefully read before commenting, I don't like to repeat myself

[Lucin]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I was going to post something but Siggie posted it with a different wording. I don't see it necessary to repeat certain things. As for me, I would like to maintain a career (doing what I like), take care of babies (if I have any someday) and spend time with my man. You do not get a degree to put it on the shelf and let it be buried by dust… I get a degree to be able to work, to have a presence in the society, to do what I like doing and fulfill my inner (non-material) needs. The moment my career affects my baby or my relationship; I'll put it away, no matter how much I 'earn' or anything. My family would be my absolute priority... And a relationship is based on mutual understanding, respect and love, it's not a matter of who's leading, who's following.
Regarding the chores, as a woman I can tell you, it's so sexy when a man helps the woman do certain stuff every once in a while. It actually brings them closer together, in my opinion.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

See here is where it annoys me again, you assume that I meant tribal

Here is what you wrote that implied a tribal society

in addition many Pueblo Indians take matrilinical stances and the women's surname is taken

Pueblo Indians are essentially a tribal people.

Before landed property, the woman's role was higher than men as you could always tell who the mom was, but the father was a tricky one in society

This was true in tribal societies before a civilization existed.

we never called ourselves Aztecs as an Empire, we called ourselves Mexica, the Aztecs left Southwest US (AZTLAN!) and moved into the Valley of Mexico, intermarrying with other Nahuatls and Mayans to become the Mexica Empire, which was mostly Nahuatl linguistically, the law stated women were equal to men

Quote from wikipedia
The Mexica (Nahuatl: Mēxihcah, pronounced [meːˈʃiʔkaʔ]) or Mexicans (Spanish: Mexicanos) were an indigenous people of the Valley of Mexico, known today as the rulers of the Aztec empire. The Mexica were a Nahua people who founded their two cities Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco on raised islets in Lake Texcoco around AD 1200. After the rise of the Tenochca Mexica they came to dominate the other Mexica citystate Tlatelolco.

http://www.plu.edu/~schockak/role-wife/home.html

Thanks for the interesting article. It nicely puts that the societies mentioned (Aztec and Mayan) had very traditional family values (very much similar to those in other parts of the world).

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Thanks for the post Federate. I hadn't heard about it before. It's sad I agree, but I don't think it's a big problem (or is it? as I've said I'm ignorant on the subject).

Haykakan, housewives->businessmen is a metaphor. They are smart because they get others to do what they cannot or do not want to (without much added effort after the initial "hook" is in place).

Levon i think we should resume this conversation after your wife gets her degree

My wife's degree wouldn't change my attitude, so I don't know where you're going with that. She is a woman, and I am a man. I lead, she follows. If she likes it not, the door is wide open. My motivation of getting with her was to start a family, if she doesn't agree with what I feel my family should be, then she's got nothing I see desirable.

[gegev]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Sadly I have heard of these cases as well and it is saddening because many of these kids are mentally sharp. In fact, there's an orphanage in Gyumri (Zatik orphanage) just for these kinds of children who are abandoned by their families because of their physical or mental disabilities. Here are pictures of some of these kids at this orphanage.

Aren't the above isolated cases, as Levon suggested, or it is widespread in Armenia you mean?

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Levon i think we should resume this conversation after your wife gets her degree. As for
" those "ignorant housewives", no they couldnt run a business because they dont know how to write a chek or ride a car.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Children with disabilities is an issue for another discussion. Please, provide a reference supporting your claims. I have never heard of that before, I am sure there may have been isolated cases, but it's not a problem in Armenia.

Sadly I have heard of these cases as well and it is saddening because many of these kids are mentally sharp. In fact, there's an orphanage in Gyumri (Zatik orphanage) just for these kinds of children who are abandoned by their families because of their physical or mental disabilities. Here are pictures of some of these kids at this orphanage.