Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

NATIONALISM AND SEX
By Lara Aharonian

http://www.armenianweekly.com/2010/03/07/aharonian-nationalism-and-sex/

March 7, 2010

I think it is easier to move a mountain in Armenia than talk about
female sexuality.

How can you talk about something that does not exist in the first
place? Yes, women in Armenia are "walking heads" and "working hands,"
with no bodies of their own, no vagina, not even a xxxxoris (what's
that?). Pleasure? Female orgasm? Cunnilingus? Yuk! Nope never heard of
it. Is that healthy? Isn't that a "dirty" thing to do? Should "good"
girls know about this?

We don't talk about sex in general. We don't hear about it in the
classrooms since most of the teachers are too embarrassed to cover the
issue-which is, ironically enough, part of the school curriculum. At
university, awareness campaigns on healthy living or "how to protect
yourself during sex" are almost non-existent since you are not supposed
to have sex before marriage in the first place, especially if you are
a girl. So why talk about something that is against the rules of the
society? Better keep everyone in the dark...and well protected!

Protected not from STDs, unwanted pregnancies, or violence, but from
the threat of collapsing the Armenian nation and threatening the
security of the country. Interestingly, that the control focuses on
women's sexuality.

Oddly enough, it seems that what I do with my own body as a woman-if
I engage in sexual acts or not, when and with whom I decide to sleep
with-is closely linked with the nation's faith. For that purpose, the
nation's defenders and perpetuators of Armenian values (the leaders,
authorities, health workers, teachers, priests, fathers and mothers,
brothers and uncles) take the liberty to decide in my place how I
should act and how I should use my own body, so that I don't harm the
nation's reputation by thinking about my own pleasure and wellbeing.

One of the first words a child learns is "amot" (shame). So whatever
you do that transgresses the limits of "predefined" and unwritten
laws, the word falls on you like a slap in the face: "Amot eh"(Shame
on you!). A small child runs in the house wearing only underwear.

"Amot eh." Innocently exploring your body while taking a bath
at age four. "Amot eh." Asking questions on anything related to
anatomy and sexuality. "Amot eh." Two people kissing each other in
public. "Amot eh." And the word stays with you-especially if you are
a woman-throughout your life. Even if there is no one around to remind
you out loud, it still resonates in your ears.

During our monthly "My Body, My Right" workshops at the women's center,
young women talk about all kinds of myths they've learned to believe:
Men are more sexual than women. It is OK for men to have extra-marital
affairs since there are things that they can't do with their "good"
wives and the mothers of their children (like oral sex).

Men can't control their sexual urges but women can. The important thing
is that men have pleasure during sex; women can live without it, etc.

For a man to cheat on his wife is considered normal and very much
tolerated by the different spheres of our society. As for a woman
cheating on her husband? She is labeled a "xxxx," "xxxxx," not worthy
of being called an "Armenian woman."

Men can have sex before marriage. It is awkward if they don't. Young
women who have sex before marriage are pjatsadz (damaged). They thought
of their own sexual pleasure and are not fit to become housewives
or mothers.

Even oral sex is mostly for men. Most of the participants in our
workshops will never consider doing that even with their husbands.

They are taught to believe that it is "dirty," "unhealthy," and
"amot," that only prostitutes can engage in such acts.

Meanwhile, young women are having sex, secretly and dangerously. But
nobody is talking about it openly. Nobody is acknowledging it.

AIDS/HIV is on the rise, as is abortion and several other diseases.

But, hush! The nation is safe!

Lara Aharonian was born in 1972, in Beirut and lived in Montreal where
she studied educational psychology. In 2003, she moved to Armenia
and founded the Women's Resource Center of Yerevan and its sister
branch in Shushi. She publishes a journal called "Feminist" and has
initiated the Women's Coalition For Peace in South Caucasus. She
is also one of the co-authors of the book In the (Un)Space and the
co-director of the documentary film Finding Zabel Yesayan.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

That's right folks, only the upper echelon of society can teach their kids things like "shame" and proper etiquette. The feminists are in Armenia to make sure Armenia crumbles to the ground in poverty and disease. After all, the beacons of feminism being the United Kingdom and U.S.A have the highest rates of teen pregnancy and disease which is why they have to constantly migrate other cultures into the country for work. They wouldn't last two generations in a row without immigration.

[ashot24]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

NATIONALISM AND SEX
By Lara Aharonian

http://www.armenianweekly.com/2010/03/07/aharonian-nationalism-and-sex/

March 7, 2010

I think it is easier to move a mountain in Armenia than talk about
female sexuality.

How can you talk about something that does not exist in the first
place? Yes, women in Armenia are "walking heads" and "working hands,"
with no bodies of their own, no vagina, not even a xxxxoris (what's
that?). Pleasure? Female orgasm? Cunnilingus? Yuk! Nope never heard of
it. Is that healthy? Isn't that a "dirty" thing to do? Should "good"
girls know about this?

We don't talk about sex in general. We don't hear about it in the
classrooms since most of the teachers are too embarrassed to cover the
issue-which is, ironically enough, part of the school curriculum. At
university, awareness campaigns on healthy living or "how to protect
yourself during sex" are almost non-existent since you are not supposed
to have sex before marriage in the first place, especially if you are
a girl. So why talk about something that is against the rules of the
society? Better keep everyone in the dark...and well protected!

Protected not from STDs, unwanted pregnancies, or violence, but from
the threat of collapsing the Armenian nation and threatening the
security of the country. Interestingly, that the control focuses on
women's sexuality.

Oddly enough, it seems that what I do with my own body as a woman-if
I engage in sexual acts or not, when and with whom I decide to sleep
with-is closely linked with the nation's faith. For that purpose, the
nation's defenders and perpetuators of Armenian values (the leaders,
authorities, health workers, teachers, priests, fathers and mothers,
brothers and uncles) take the liberty to decide in my place how I
should act and how I should use my own body, so that I don't harm the
nation's reputation by thinking about my own pleasure and wellbeing.

One of the first words a child learns is "amot" (shame). So whatever
you do that transgresses the limits of "predefined" and unwritten
laws, the word falls on you like a slap in the face: "Amot eh"(Shame
on you!). A small child runs in the house wearing only underwear.

"Amot eh." Innocently exploring your body while taking a bath
at age four. "Amot eh." Asking questions on anything related to
anatomy and sexuality. "Amot eh." Two people kissing each other in
public. "Amot eh." And the word stays with you-especially if you are
a woman-throughout your life. Even if there is no one around to remind
you out loud, it still resonates in your ears.

During our monthly "My Body, My Right" workshops at the women's center,
young women talk about all kinds of myths they've learned to believe:
Men are more sexual than women. It is OK for men to have extra-marital
affairs since there are things that they can't do with their "good"
wives and the mothers of their children (like oral sex).

Men can't control their sexual urges but women can. The important thing
is that men have pleasure during sex; women can live without it, etc.

For a man to cheat on his wife is considered normal and very much
tolerated by the different spheres of our society. As for a woman
cheating on her husband? She is labeled a "xxxx," "xxxxx," not worthy
of being called an "Armenian woman."

Men can have sex before marriage. It is awkward if they don't. Young
women who have sex before marriage are pjatsadz (damaged). They thought
of their own sexual pleasure and are not fit to become housewives
or mothers.

Even oral sex is mostly for men. Most of the participants in our
workshops will never consider doing that even with their husbands.

They are taught to believe that it is "dirty," "unhealthy," and
"amot," that only prostitutes can engage in such acts.

Meanwhile, young women are having sex, secretly and dangerously. But
nobody is talking about it openly. Nobody is acknowledging it.

AIDS/HIV is on the rise, as is abortion and several other diseases.

But, hush! The nation is safe!

Lara Aharonian was born in 1972, in Beirut and lived in Montreal where
she studied educational psychology. In 2003, she moved to Armenia
and founded the Women's Resource Center of Yerevan and its sister
branch in Shushi. She publishes a journal called "Feminist" and has
initiated the Women's Coalition For Peace in South Caucasus. She
is also one of the co-authors of the book In the (Un)Space and the
co-director of the documentary film Finding Zabel Yesayan.

She is right at every single point.

But what can we do? Not referring to the future or the wellbeing of the Armenian nation, but promoting a society where many things are talked about, are publicly informed, are allowed and tolerated (to both men and women), when it comes to something as sensible as sex and sexuality are, the only possible result is disaster. Men in our society behave and think the way they think because, to name examples, cheating, de-virginize before marriage, etc. has been accepted and allowed in society, publicly spoken about, even promoted by the macho society...the only possible way out here to achieve equality and stop being such an hypocrite society, according to feminists (which I don't support, nor I support machismo, both are senseless), is to allow, spoke, promote women to do every single thing men do as well, right? Even the nasty things

Is there any other way out? What can we do? When people are given all the paths to freedom they always choose the worst to walk on, if we are already in a bad society, it can always be even worse. The problem with what Mrs. Aharoian says, is that she is talking about feminism and womens rights to sexuality from the point of view of a Western-based feminist. Of course she's gonna be offended about the way women are treated back East, but I think the one who has to face reality is her...Armenian society, and even more, Eastern society is a hypocrite society...but wait a moment, Western society is as hypocrite as well, even more, but the thing is that while Western society is an in-your-face hypocrisy, Eastern society is an in-the-shadows society...or in other words, we are a bunch of sanctimonious.

That's her point, women should be given more opportunities, more rights in every sphere as well as men have...but we have to start building some serious limits to both men and women. If we don't allow women to lose their 'purity' before marriage, we shouldn't allow such thing to men as well...we shouldn't apply double standards and most of all we shouldn't be hypocrites. If women can 'ruin' the Armenian nation's name men can as well, indeed if we men are cursed with the words women have given to us all along (that is to say, cheaters, pigs, womanizers, etc.) is because we all along history have proven we can be, while women have always been the 'victims' of 'us. That is changing, but sadly, it is changing in the worst way possible...as I've always said, women completely misunderstood what 'female liberation' and 'equality' mean, to them...as of today, it means 'If men are pig, we can be as piggy as well...and even more, we can be even more pigs'...apply that to an example of your like.

Some will say 'Oh but women raise the family, women are mothers and what example can a mother give a child if she behaves...' and all the macho view on the subject, guess what? The result of years and years of women repression has brought to us the state in the one we are now, just read and think about what she says...

AIDS/HIV is on the rise, as is abortion and several other diseases.

But, hush! The nation is safe!

...is a hypocrite society what we need?

What's the solution? I don't know...but we really need a change of attitude towards many things concerning us as Armenians, giving all the permissions is not the answer, not prohibiting them all. The only thing I say is that if we, men of our nation are concerned about women 'endangering' the future and wellbeing of the Armenian nation with their attitude, you should think about what you do in order to protect it as well.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

That's right folks, only the upper echelon of society can teach their kids things like "shame" and proper etiquette. The feminists are in Armenia to make sure Armenia crumbles to the ground in poverty and disease. After all, the beacons of feminism being the United Kingdom and U.S.A have the highest rates of teen pregnancy and disease which is why they have to constantly migrate other cultures into the country for work. They wouldn't last two generations in a row without immigration.

Before you start talking it would be good to do some thinking first. The USA has increased its population dramaticaly while the population in Hayastan has decreased in the same manner. Poverty and disease are the products of capitolism not feminism. Understanding things for what they are is always better then "o its shamefull so lets not talk about it". People are very capable of adapting thus i am sure they would last longer then two generations. I dont support feminists nor anyone else who preaches hate but not talking about real issues is just dumb and not all feminists are out to kill all the men.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Before you start talking it would be good to do some thinking first. The USA has increased its population dramaticaly while the population in Hayastan has decreased in the same manner. Poverty and disease are the products of capitolism not feminism. Understanding things for what they are is always better then "o its shamefull so lets not talk about it". People are very capable of adapting thus i am sure they would last longer then two generations. I dont support feminists nor anyone else who preaches hate but not talking about real issues is just dumb and not all feminists are out to kill all the men.

The USA has increased its population through migration. Hayastan has decreased in population because of all the immigrants taking the first boat to California or having to work in Russia or Europe. Some families start in Hayastan but the country loses them to the bigger players. Capitalism has made many Chinese people wealthy and brought others in the world to middle class level, how is it that it brought disease and poverty to the USA where there are endless opportunities to work?

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

The USA has increased its population through migration. Hayastan has decreased in population because of all the immigrants taking the first boat to California or having to work in Russia or Europe. Some families start in Hayastan but the country loses them to the bigger players. Capitalism has made many Chinese people wealthy and brought others in the world to middle class level, how is it that it brought disease and poverty to the USA where there are endless opportunities to work?

Capitolism creates inequality which means there are going to be poor people who cannot afford medical treatment, food.... Capitolism in China is very much controlled by the government it is not the same as it is here. It is harder to fire a worker in China then it is here in the USA.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Well, well. Looks like we have another wh0re complaining about being called a wh0re, so she embarks on a crusade to force society to accept her as "normal" in order not to feel like a wh0re. Let's see, first of all, Mrs. Aharonian, should realize that nobody gives a fuk what she does, or how she feels. The world doesn't revolve around her stinky vagin, so nobody gives a fuk if she's a wh0re or not. If she wants to wh0re around, let her be, but it gives her no right to try to turn other women into wh0res as well, so she doesn't feel like a wh0re in Armenia.

If she wants to spread her western wh0rish values, she should take her HIV infested vagin, and her sourceless propaganda and take it back to Canada, where I'm sure, there are many men willing to lower their standards completely and merry a wh0re.

Notice, that in her article she followed the standard propaganda technique, of claiming things without providing any references. If a westernized loser reads her article, he/she would be eager to follow in her logic, as after all, in the west no guy is expected to have balls, and brown-nosing wh0res is the standard practice.

I have an awesome suggestion for this wh0re. Let her take her crap out of Armenia, as sooner or later she will probably be met with bad luck, and as always, nobody will give a crap about what a dirty stinkin wh0re does, or what happened to her.

Sexuality is a private matter. What a husband and wife do together is not up for public discussion, nor is there any reasons to have workshops to teach women how to enjoy themselves. Just because some wh0re likes certain behaviors, where does she suddenly get the idea that her way is the right way?
I don't get it, since when did people start listening to what a wh0re is whining about? Who gives a sh1t. The last thing Armenia wants is for young men and women to embark on a senseless crusade of trying seeking pleasure, and avoiding responsibilities towards their country.

I bet this wh0re never stopped to ask why traditional values are so important in Armenia. I bet this wh0re has no idea why women are so valued in Armenian society? She doesn't know that being a female doesn't mean being a woman. A woman knows when to abandon her plight for personal satisfaction and do something for the benefit of her family and her country. Similarly, being a male doesn't mean being a man. A man knows when to abandon his self, and dedicate himself to his family and his country. If our beloved Armenian traditional values didn't exist, we wouldn't be Armenian right now.

So HOW can this fukin wh0re just come out and suggest that OUR VALUES, are WRONG? Who the fuk does she think she is? Just because she's educated in the west she thinks she's all that? FUK the west. She's just a fukin useless wh0re that has embarked on a campaign to aid our enemies so that Armenia would be no more.

Men and women of her ideals should stay the fuk away from Armenia. They should change their last name, so as NO ONE will ever get the hint that they are Armenian. They are a disgrace to our long history, and they want nothing more than our demise.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

She is right at every single point.

Before you agree with every point posted by some stupid wh0re, make sure the statements she makes are not based on hot air. She has claimed some things that are completely wrong, and hasn't provided the slightest proof of her claims.
She has merely used just about every possible feminist propaganda statement, and included them in her article. Please, do check on her facts before agreeing with her. Blind ignorance is what will lead Armenia down the wrong path.

Before any issues pertaining to the half of the population can get looked at, we need to take care of things that affect everyone equally. The worst thing we can do is to succumb to the whims of some stupid self-loathing wh0re, who feels guilty about never being as good as real Armenian women, so she feels the need to discredit and put down every decent Armenian woman in order to feel good about her choices.

Just notice how many times she uses her opinions and actions as the holy grail of how a woman should think and act. If testicle-less idiots hadn't catered to her every whim in order to get some poossy, she wouldn't feel as if she's all that a woman can be, and wouldn't take it as a personal insult when some people chose to live with values vastly different from hers.

If a wh0re wants to be a wh0re, then she can be a wh0re. It's her choice, and she's entitled to it. However, she's not a princess, and no one (country) should bend his/her back just to make sure that she feels accepted. If a wh0re doesn't like being a wh0re, she should go somewhere where wh0res are celebrated, such as the US, or Canada, or any other wh0risized western country.

[ashot24]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Before you agree with every point posted by some stupid wh0re, make sure the statements she makes are not based on hot air. She has claimed some things that are completely wrong, and hasn't provided the slightest proof of her claims.
She has merely used just about every possible feminist propaganda statement, and included them in her article. Please, do check on her facts before agreeing with her. Blind ignorance is what will lead Armenia down the wrong path.

Before any issues pertaining to the half of the population can get looked at, we need to take care of things that affect everyone equally. The worst thing we can do is to succumb to the whims of some stupid self-loathing wh0re, who feels guilty about never being as good as real Armenian women, so she feels the need to discredit and put down every decent Armenian woman in order to feel good about her choices.

Just notice how many times she uses her opinions and actions as the holy grail of how a woman should think and act. If testicle-less idiots hadn't catered to her every whim in order to get some poossy, she wouldn't feel as if she's all that a woman can be, and wouldn't take it as a personal insult when some people chose to live with values vastly different from hers.

I agree with her I said, but as I explained further there's no need for coming with her Western 'progressist' crap to our country. What I am saying is that she speaks the reality of the problem, but is we want a good change...we should impose the same rules for men and women...how is it possible than a man can cheat and be allright, but a women cheating is seen as 'amot e'? My idea is simple, we all know cheating is one of the lowests sins, then apply that and make understand both men and women that if any of them does that...they deserve to be labeled 'amot e'.

I bet this wh0re never stopped to ask why traditional values are so important in Armenia. I bet this wh0re has no idea why women are so valued in Armenian society? She doesn't know that being a female doesn't mean being a woman. A woman knows when to abandon her plight for personal satisfaction and do something for the benefit of her family and her country. Similarly, being a male doesn't mean being a man. A man knows when to abandon his self, and dedicate himself to his family and his country. If our beloved Armenian traditional values didn't exist, we wouldn't be Armenian right now.

So HOW can this fukin wh0re just come out and suggest that OUR VALUES, are WRONG? Who the fuk does she think she is? Just because she's educated in the west she thinks she's all that? FUK the west. She's just a fukin useless wh0re that has embarked on a campaign to aid our enemies so that Armenia would be no more.

Men and women of her ideals should stay the fuk away from Armenia. They should change their last name, so as NO ONE will ever get the hint that they are Armenian. They are a disgrace to our long history, and they want nothing more than our demise.

That's what I was saying, these people comes to our country trying to impose their values over ours. They can't understand or they simply can't tolerate that a society is different from that one they came from...specially from Western society, they always do the same and it sicks me. We don't go to Western countries like the US or France trying to tell them how they should behave. I prefer my rather conservative society keeping its values than an open, all-allowed bunch of people doing as they please...I have much experience in what happens when people are given too much freedom and openness they don't know how to control, and for no reason I want that for my homeland, for both men and women.

If we want our society to stop being hypocrite and act accordingly to our traditions apply rules and limits by imposing morality, values and self-respect. There's no need for anything else than dignity and morals.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I agree with her I said, but as I explained further there's no need for coming with her Western 'progressist' crap to our country.

I see, I just wanted to make a point of the fact that she made some statements as facts (without proof), when in fact these statements are completely wrong.

For example: Meanwhile, young women are having sex, secretly and dangerously. But nobody is talking about it openly

How can she know this, when nobody's talking about it? In fact, there is a small percentage of females in Armenia that wh0re around, but that percentage has always existed, and not only in Armenia, but in pretty much any conservative society.

.we should impose the same rules for men and women...how is it possible than a man can cheat and be allright, but a women cheating is seen as 'amot e'?

There are various reasons why in most traditional societies adultery for men has been treated with less severity than adultery for women. One of the reasons is that a man usually slaved his whole life to support his family, and he was always expected to do so, and if a woman cheated on him, he could work his whole life to raise someone else's kids. However, a man being with another man's wife was punished as severely as a married woman committing adultery, as he was basically stealing from the woman's husband. By stealing, I mean stealing the husband's whole livelihood, his children.
I believe I touched on this some in one of my older posts in this thread.

That's what I was saying, these people comes to our country trying to impose their values over ours. They can't understand or they simply can't tolerate that a society is different from that one they came from...specially from Western society, they always do the same and it sicks me. We don't go to Western countries like the US or France trying to tell them how they should behave. I prefer my rather conservative society keeping its values than an open, all-allowed bunch of people doing as they please...I have much experience in what happens when people are given too much freedom and openness they don't know how to control, and for no reason I want that for my homeland, for both men and women.

If we want our society to stop being hypocrite and act accordingly to our traditions apply rules and limits by imposing morality, values and self-respect. There's no need for anything else than dignity and morals.

I completely agree with you.