Iranian-Armenian relations

[retro]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

"Born on Russia's territory"! Has he got no idea about when Russia was founded and when Zoroastrianism started? Seems people may be more right in comparing Putin to Stalin than they realise. Does Putin also have a Stalinesque desire to invent fantasy history for his political ideology? Will he be penning his own vanity monographs on history / anthropology / linguistics / science / etc., just like Stalin did? Maybe he already does.

Whilst Putin is clearly playing up Russia's Indo-Iranic associations for poltical reasons and Zoroastrianism has Western Asian origins.

What maybe confusing Putin is the Indo-Iranic steppe trans-Urals bronze age cultures, such as the Scytho-Sarmatian. From which people like the Alans and Slavs are in no small part where derived. In ancient times a lot of these weird Scytho Euro-Mongoloid, steppe types where Indo-Europeans and people like the Kazakh where not always Turkic.

Around 60% of Tajiks are R1a1 and seemingly they are related to the Indo-Aryans in Northern India. An Indo-Iranic, homeland in the Urals isn't as far fetched a idea as it might as first seem due to the archeology evidence.

As Afanasevo culture formed the eastern linguistic periphery of the Indo-European continuum of languages whose centre of expansion lay much farther to the west, north of the Black and Caspian seas.

I don't necessarily agree with this guys conclusions. However he does make a few intresting points.

The Origins of R1a1 Clade and Indo-European

An Out of India theory for the Indo-European languages arose in the 19th Century, but cold water was quickly poured on it, as archeology and linguistics does not support it in the slightest. Recently however, Out of India nuts, most of whom, other than the Indian archeologist Lal, are Indian nationalist and Hindutva ideologues, have focused on genetics.

In particular, they have focused on the R1a1 marker. Recent studies, in particular this paper, have suggested an Indian origin for R1a1. It is true that R1a1 is a marker for Indo-European. However, the time depth for the origin of R1a1 is about 18,000 years. It originated in an area bounded by southern Siberia near Omsk in the north and southern Pakistan in the south. This area includes Pakistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan and Southern Russia. It may also include northern India.

The linked paper states that R1a1 arose in the Central Asian steppes and South Asia 18,000 YBP. That is far earlier than the earliest time depth for Indo-European, which is ~8,000 years old and has its homeland probably in Anatolia, certainly not in India.

R1a1 arose in the Central-South Asian region long ago. At some point, some of them moved out to the region of Southern Russia where the Kurgan Culture took hold. There was probably a back movement of these folks south to Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Stans and India in the form of Indo-Aryan speakers about 3,500 years ago.

The homeland of the Indo-Aryan speakers is in far northwest Kazakhstan and neighboring regions of Russia near the far southeast end of the Urals and is dated to 4,500-5,000 YBP.

It is probably from this region that the R1a1 found in the Slavic regions originated.

The new genetic evidence is completely in accord for southern Russian homeland for IE and adds no weight whatsoever to the Out of India theory, since the clade originated far before I-E even existed in the pre-IE era.

References

Mirabal et al. 2009. “Y-Chromosome distribution within the geolinguistic landscape of northwestern Russia”, European Journal of Human Genetics 17: 1260–1273

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2...indo-european/

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

@ Artsakh

Most Armenian historians state that that Iran has been Armenia's "savior," to use your words; they say you surrendered to many invasions, and without Iran to push out hostile invaders, you would all be dead. Next time Armenia gets invaded, I'll wrap a lump of coal in your printed comments and throw it over the border so you can you stay warm.

... But then again, he's our "saviour," he's here to save the Armenians who don't know any better.....HAHAHAHAHAHA... They are a weasal nation with no honor, who surrenedered to the Arabs and embraced their religion at the swords point.

“Throughout the expanse of Armenian history only Iran consistently has prevented the complete demise of the Armenian people, and for that we are indebted beyond words.”

Hovhannes Karapetyan (aka Hovhannes Shiraz) Armenian Literary Figure & Poet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovhannes_Shiraz

“ Prior to the third century A.D., Iran had more influence on Armenia's culture than any of its other neighbours.”

[Prof. George A. Bournoutian, Columbia Univ., A History of the Armenian People Volume II.]

“One of the intangible benefits of Armenian economic power in Iran was the transformation of the Armenian self-image. After centuries of conquest by Muslim invaders, Armenians were granted equal and at times even greater privileges than Muslims.”

[Prof. George A. Bournoutian, Columbia Univ., A History of the Armenian People Volume II.]

“In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks drove thousands of Armenians to Iranian Azerbaijan, where some were sold as slaves.”

[Prof. George A. Bournoutian, Columbia Univ., A History of the Armenian People Volume II.]

“The emergence of the Safavids and the rise of Shi'ism in eastern Anatolia were major threats to the Ottomans, whose claim to the caliphate and the leadership of the Muslim world was challenged by the new Iranian dynasty. … The protracted Ottoman-Safavid war and the resulting forced migrations depopulated parts of historic Armenia, and the Kurdish settlement changed its social and ethnic balance. … By 1736 a new ruler, Nader Shah (1736-1747) and a new dynasty, the Afshars, had restored order in Iran, had convinced the Russians to withdraw, and had pushed the Ottomans back to the boundaries of 1639.”

[Prof. George A. Bournoutian, Columbia Univ., A History of the Armenian People Volume II.]

... They are a weasal nation with no honor, who surrenedered to the Arabs ...

Write to Saddam's generals who were backed by U.S. & European weapons, intelligence, and WMDs (including chemical and nerve agents), and query how Iranians surrendered. Ask the Hazaras (the children of Ghengis Khan now living in Afghanistan) how we surrendered; ask the USSR's generals how Persians surrendered in Afghanistan at the height of Russian military power. When you learn about Shia Islam voluntarily displacing the Islam of the invaders you will understand better what Iran did and why we did it. The fewer Armenians like you there are, the bigger Armenia will be.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

[Prof. George A. Bournoutian, Columbia Univ., A History of the Armenian People Volume II.]

But Persepolis, this forum's resident horde of inbreds think that Bournoutian is worse than the anti-Christ.

Well, really they think that anyone who knows anything at all about the actual history of Armenia is worse than the anti-Christ.

[Eddo211]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

I-------------------------------
Either you want to be in the camp of....

Or, you want to be in the camp of.....

So is that how you see everything in life, A or B, either or, black and white. Your logic is flawed. Now that is the real shame.

You wanna know who I support......both those links you provided are my brothers.

You wanna know who else I support?......my patriotic Iranian brothers in Iran and abroad.

Armenian/Iran century old relations have always been mutual in benefit. Without Armenia as an Ally during critical times, today’s Iran would not exist as it is. This goes back to the battles against the Seljuks and way beyond the Roman times. Right now Iran is surrounded by enemies and countries hosting a platform for these enemies. The only country Iran can trust now is Armenia.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

After all, he comes from a nation of 70 millions who couldn't even create an alphabet for themselves.

Do you think lying increases your credibility?

The Persian language is written with a number of different scripts, including Old Persian (a type of Cuneiform), Pahlavi, and Avestan (among others); if you consider all Iranian languages, you will see the list is even bigger (but let's keep it simple for now). After the Islamic displacement of the Persian Sassanid Empire in 642 CE, the Perso-Arabic alphabet was employed for religious purposes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perso-Arabic_script Of course Arabic, is almost entirely based off of the Persian Avestan script - which made it easy to implement in Persia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan_alphabet I will write it twice: The Arabic alphabet is based on the Persian alphabet.

Not only did we create our own alphabet - we created alphabets that other people still use. Let me know if I can donate some money so you can finish elementary school and have something to hang on your wall.

* 4,800 years ago we pioneered surgery and invented special prosthetics. http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/1...ry=archaeology.

* 5,200 years ago we invented the same principles of animation used today. http://www.animationmagazine.net/fea...vered-in-iran/
(It's a bowl with images of an antelope that sat on a rotating system - when you spun the bowl, the antelope jumped towards the tree.)

... you really don't know much about Iranian contributions to world civilization & how we value scholarship and learning.

[UrMistake]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

@ Artsakh

Most Armenian historians state that that Iran has been Armenia's "savior," to use your words; they say you surrendered to many invasions, and without Iran to push out hostile invaders, you would all be dead. Next time Armenia gets invaded, I'll wrap a lump of coal in your printed comments and throw it over the border so you can you stay warm.



“Throughout the expanse of Armenian history only Iran consistently has prevented the complete demise of the Armenian people, and for that we are indebted beyond words.”

Hovhannes Karapetyan (aka Hovhannes Shiraz) Armenian Literary Figure & Poet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovhannes_Shiraz

“ Prior to the third century A.D., Iran had more influence on Armenia's culture than any of its other neighbours.”

[Prof. George A. Bournoutian, Columbia Univ., A History of the Armenian People Volume II.]

“One of the intangible benefits of Armenian economic power in Iran was the transformation of the Armenian self-image. After centuries of conquest by Muslim invaders, Armenians were granted equal and at times even greater privileges than Muslims.”

[Prof. George A. Bournoutian, Columbia Univ., A History of the Armenian People Volume II.]

“In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks drove thousands of Armenians to Iranian Azerbaijan, where some were sold as slaves.”

[Prof. George A. Bournoutian, Columbia Univ., A History of the Armenian People Volume II.]

“The emergence of the Safavids and the rise of Shi'ism in eastern Anatolia were major threats to the Ottomans, whose claim to the caliphate and the leadership of the Muslim world was challenged by the new Iranian dynasty. … The protracted Ottoman-Safavid war and the resulting forced migrations depopulated parts of historic Armenia, and the Kurdish settlement changed its social and ethnic balance. … By 1736 a new ruler, Nader Shah (1736-1747) and a new dynasty, the Afshars, had restored order in Iran, had convinced the Russians to withdraw, and had pushed the Ottomans back to the boundaries of 1639.”

[Prof. George A. Bournoutian, Columbia Univ., A History of the Armenian People Volume II.]





Write to Saddam's generals who were backed by U.S. & European weapons, intelligence, and WMDs (including chemical and nerve agents), and query how Iranians surrendered. Ask the Hazaras (the children of Ghengis Khan now living in Afghanistan) how we surrendered; ask the USSR's generals how Persians surrendered in Afghanistan at the height of Russian military power. When you learn about Shia Islam voluntarily displacing the Islam of the invaders you will understand better what Iran did and why we did it. The fewer Armenians like you there are, the bigger Armenia will be.

In wich part you see the sentence With out Iran Armenia would not be ?
Dont you think too big for your self ?

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Dont you think too big for your self ?

Do I think I am too big for myself?

Not when your compatriots are spreading disinformation about my people, like below:

Originally Posted by Artsakh
After all, he comes from a nation of 70 millions who couldn't even create an alphabet for themselves.

Not when your compatriots selectively single me out for being anti-Russian (under some bizarre expectation that I should be pro-Russian) while letting Armenians slide by on overtly anti-Russian statements and inexplicable hypocrisy:

Originally Posted by Tigranakert
Why are you [Persopolis] ignoring the other statements you made about Russia, are you afraid to discuss them?

Originally Posted by Mos
Countries that seem like allies like Russia only do so in order to use us, in order to sell us at the highest price.

Originally Posted by Mos
Persepolis is just another Russophobe

Not when your compatriot's patriotism is similar to Turkish erradication policies and is stated against my people:

Originally Posted by Mos
if I married a Perisan or non-Armenian women, me being the father, I would force Armenian identity.

Not when you compatriots advocate genociding innocent women and children while expecting the world to recognize similar acts against them.

Originally Posted by arakeretzig
Anyway, I hope Israel finishes this "palestinian" menace once and for all. Cast Lead 2 should commence soon. You have to admire Israel's patience for all this time.

Not when your compatriots are too stupid to realize the difference between what Aliyev calls an "Azerbaijani" and Iranian-Azaris while going around spitting on the latter (and quite frankly endangering Armenians in ways you can only begin to imagine):

Originally Posted by levon1
And what would an Iranian-Azari do anyway? There is one here and after an argument I spit in his face.

Not when your compatriots seek religious tolerance in the region, but don't respect others in the same manner:

Originally Posted by Mos
Go pray towards Mecca and shout 'allahu akbar'

Originally Posted by Mos
Iranians are becoming cancer to Armenia and should be deported.

Not when your compatriots contradict themselves from post-to-post and then flip out like they're on psychotropic drugs when a non-Armenian point out the contradiction:

Originally Posted by Eddo211
Iranian Armenians only mixed with other Armenians (past, present, future).

Originally Posted by Eddo211
We have however mixed to a small degree with our Persian "Brothers" in the past....Persian girls steal Armenian hearts

Not when your compatriots fabricate a lie that Shah Abbas ("shah habas" [sic]) exiled one million Armenians when there weren't one million Armenians to exile and that he relocated thousands to the interior of Iran in the face of what the Armenian government admits was an attempted invasion of Iran.

Originally Posted by haysip
shah habas of iran exiled about a million Armenians

Not when you have members here that assert Armenians are "pure" because they engaged in centuries of infanticide:

Originally Posted by haysip
... "in this video Armen Ayvazyan ... says that intermarrages/rapes of Armenians were very rare ... and those babies that were not Armenian were being destroyed.

Not when you run a Iranian / Armenian relations thread and don't want honest feedback from Iranians:

Originally Posted by Mos
You have no right to even speak on this forum .... God when will these 2 persians leave our forum, and leave it to peace.

Why do you think I am wrong in making the types of observations I've made above?

Originally Posted by UrMistake
Do you see what is wrong!! with what you are saying!!

[UrMistake]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Yes Persepolis but all this comment of my fellow compatriots had a reason (to make you angry ) and are commented to response of some of yours flame bytes,it seems you are carefully following the posts here and you comment them ...but you fail to see why they are telling this stuff...

You are the one that started making post about how iran should incorporate armenia so we shall be saved !! well is your choice to believe that ,but is other thing to make others believe that also,don't be so tragic ,

Armenia and i as Armenian are very tolerant and we tent to respect others,we see Iran as friendly state and its people, even if we dont like how you keep authoritarian state but its your country you can do what ever you like,its not problem for us,
Maybe you are jealous of our relations with Russia ,but we as people and our state just like russian state and its people consider each other friends and "our people" even if we are not slavs,i say that cause you characterized our relations lapdogs of russia,lapdog my friend is egypt for america and every other state that are surrendering to NATO(American alliance) and are too week to do something about it,
in our case our relations and good friendship with russia is coming from inside and core of not only russian/armenian politicians but most importantly its people so what ever happens what ever bad things come between us in the end we gonna support each other,and that my friend no other nation can say with 100% accuracy.

Is fact our diaspora in so many nations have rise themself considerable respect ,one of them are Russia, do you know other groups expect J ews that are capable of obtaining respect and power in other nations just by its people and not of foreign policy?

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

So is that how you see everything in life, A or B, either or, black and white. Your logic is flawed. Now that is the real shame.

You wanna know who I support......both those links you provided are my brothers.

We discussed two generally-stated types of Armenians - I only respect one type ("TYPE B"): yes it is black & white for me. And it's starting to become that way to the Armenian government as they are starting to reject the right of "TYPE A" Armenians to return to Armenia ("We don't want them," is what they're starting to say.)

ARMENIAN GOV. "We don't want them"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0IrwZB-onI

I believe Iran will be working with Armenia on such a program too - some people (Iranians included) just need to become permanent members of the diaspora.

[Eddo211]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

some people (Iranians included) just need to become permanent members of the diaspora.

I know what you mean, but I am not sure I agree, their views will/can change with positive changes in Iran. (see PM)

You need to remove your signature if you care about Iran/Armenia relations.
Haghighat roshaneh ageh tavadjo bedi.