Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

You need to think outside the box where 1+2 does not add up to 3...........Who ever told you that you can't get what you don't have? Bulldust.

You think you have it all figured out. The world and our cause cannot be solved with a single formula. If this goes through then I hope you enjoy your temporary economic prosperity of a mirage hanging like a carrot off of a stick.


Catharsis: Thanks for posting.

Hey Eddo thats the kind of math that got the diaspora to its ultrapowerful position today. You sit there telling a math teacher that 1+2 does not add up to three, well it always has it still does and it always will! That formula never changes and never will. I never said you cant get what you dont have, i said you cant lose what you dont have, you drunk or something?

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Dissidence in Armenian society –Turkey’s biggest dream

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ There are deep processes taking place in both Armenia and Diaspora. Each Armenian is very sensitive about the issue lying behind discussions, RA Deputy FM Shavarsh Kocharyan told Armenian journalists. “There are two ways in which people think. First, world faces rapid changes, with serious developments taking place in our region. In such circumstances, everybody seeks to achieve the maximum. And if, in such situation, we do not resolve national issues, others will do that instead of us,” Deputy FM said. The second way of thinking, according to Kocharyan, is that Ankara has not changed its position on Armenian Issue, continuing to impede Armenian Genocide recognition and acquiring tools in Karabakh issue. “Both types of thinking are substantiated, but it would be wrong to be guided by one of them. Current policy considers both approaches,” Kocharyan noted.Internal discussions are very important, but they should not cross all limits, Deputy FM believes. “Dissidence in our society is Turkey’s biggest dream, and we should realize that,” he said.

Those who protest against RA-Turkish Protocols demand that Turkey recognize Armenian Genocide and open border before starting dialogue with Armenia. “Such approach implies pursuance of isolation policy, with all the threats deriving thereof. In view of regional shifts, such policy will push us out of game, and everything will be done at our expense. In such situation, we are resolving very concrete issues,” Shavarsh Kocharyan said.

http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=37615

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Diasporans have participated with everything they have, including billions and billions of investments and cadres. The major reason behind not full-scale participation is the environment in Armenia which is not friendly to ANY outside participation, including that of our own kit and kin. I (sadly) agree when US and others for their own interests point out the high corruption levels that are prevalent throughout Armenia. Not to mention concepts like individual rights and freedoms, are all but curtailed. Any Armenian, one living in Armenia and repatriating Diasporan should feel that Armenia at least gives them a chance to survive on their own, they will not complain and they will strive towards this end, but even this meager chance of free enterprise and other freedoms is highly curtailed and not afforded to many.

I'm sorry but that is bullxxxx. Armenia is more 'free' (whatever that term means at the time) than any of its neighbors. Only reason u.s. likes to mention those things is because it think it is the world's moral voice and of course because Armenia is not it's bi*ch like georgia nor does it have oil like azerbaijan.

There are a number of Diaspora Armenians who invest/donate millions in Armenia and do not have major issues, three key ones being Kirk, Cafesjian and Eurnekian. The Armenian Diaspora of Russia and Iran are very well represented in the business community of Armenia, no reason why Armenians from the u.s./canada can't do the same.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

No, the Treaty of Lausanne actually 'fixed' pretty much the borders of 'Republic of Turkey' on post-Ottoman space. The hearings that took place on December 12, 13 and 14 of 1922 (and the one on July 7, 1923) specifically dealt with the Armenian Question. Ismet Pasha and Riza Nuri objected to handing over occupied parts of Western Armenia to its rightful owner - the Armenian Republic. Just the fact that the Turks were able to "drop" the Armenian Question (like the FACT of the genocide is being questioned now through the so-called 'inquiry commission') along with fixing their borders on territories that were awarded to Armenia and Greece was a major diplomatic victory for Turkey.

And why were they able to do this and it was accepted? Because of power; might makes right.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

OK Armanen, how is it possible by signing the protocols that align itself with the illegal Kars Treaty and signs off any parts or the mere hope of getting Western Armenia back will help us in any shape or form? Do you forget what Baruyr Sevag said in some of his poetry? Mer hoghere, mer sourp hoghere khelets meznits teshnamin. You think economically you'll get ahead with the turkish industries and start making bucks; let's suppose we do much better economically; but you also forget demographically as you also mentioned it before and so have I, that as it stand today we have a small little nation with 3 million population that do not produce more than 1-2 children per family while they may go up to 8 or 9 per family and if they are allowed to come in and overpopulate themselves our little Armenia who for now are 90+% all Armenian, doesn't that scares you? It scares the heck out of me.

I would much prefer not to sign the protocols, keep the status quo, see to it that Artsakh is accepted by world powers and RA by working with the Diasporan Armenians to have more countries accept the Genocide recognition and spread all over the world about the Wilson Arbitration and the legality of it. And you'll continue to have the Diasporan Armenians pouring their monies into RA. If you sign the protocols and turkey will eventually take over, I don't expect any Diasporan Armenian to keep on pouring their monies into a land that it wouldn't be much of Armenian land sooner than you think.

You didn't answer my question Anoush jan. The demographic factor scares me the most, but I do not have a lot of reasons to think the turks or kurds will decide to move to Armenia, they are getting along just fine where they are and even with open borders, there will still be hostility between the two peoples.

As far as the Diaspora, it should invest more in Armenia regardless and the government of RA should emphasize to the Russians that a strong Armenia will not leave the partnership it has with them. I think this may be one of the reasons why the Diaspora is not encouraged by the RA government has much as it should be because of Russian pressure. It is up to the RA government in conjunction with the 2+ million Armenians in Russia to gain more influence within the Kremlin.

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Catharsis: Thanks for posting.

Thank you Eddo likewise. Right now education is key in light of virtually complete blackout of mass media coverage in Armenia. The mass protests against the Turkish protocols by our brothers and sisters have become a viable means to at least partially get the word out of what is taking place.

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

No its not, if the people of Armenia were as convinced as the diaspora of the eviles of this agreement, it would have been much harder if not impossible to ratify it. As imperfect a government Armenia has it does atleast to some degree represent its people. I have to go teach algebra to a bunch of college kids in the morning so i bid you all a good night. If you guys are gona be up for a while please go read some of my previous threads where you will discover that i am not a xxx, and i consider the rift between our people the most dangerous thing for our nation, and i make suggestions of how to fix this rift.....

You need to think outside the box where 1+2 does not add up to 3...........Who ever told you that you can't get what you don't have? Bulldust.

You think you have it all figured out. The world and our cause cannot be solved with a single formula. If this goes through then I hope you enjoy your temporary economic prosperity of a mirage hanging like a carrot off of a stick.


Catharsis: Thanks for posting.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

The Price of the “non-existing preconditions”: Aliev is calling for the unification of the Turkic world and return of Zangezur (Syunik)


While Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan was trying to explain to his compatriots living abroad that there are no preconditions in the protocols inked on August 31 on establishing diplomatic relations between Yerevan and Ankara, his Azerbaijani counterpart Ilham Aliev was 100 km to the south from Yerevan voicing Turkic claims for Armenian lands.

The 9th summit of Turkic-Language Speaking Countries was the stage where the claims were made. And it wasn’t accidental that an ancient Armenian region of Nakhijevan – given to the Soviet Azerbaijan by Bolsheviks – was selected as the place for holding the summit.

During the Soviet times it took two hours to get from Yerevan to Nakhijevan. Today, a whole history separates the two.

It was there, according to the official version, that Azerbaijan’s current president’s father and his immediate predecessor, former president Heidar Aliev, was born.

A few years ago, it was in Nakhijevan that Azeris destroyed more than 4,000 medieval Armenian tombstones (cross-stones) with the purpose of eliminating the traces of the Armenian civilization in that territory.

And now, the time has come to, not anywhere else but in Nakhijevan, declare territorial claims for Armenia’s Syunik province known also as Zangezur.

Presidents of Azerbaijan, Turkey, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and the Prime-Minister of Turkmenistan took part in the summit.

Prior to his speech full of radical claims, the Azerbaijani president found it incumbent on himself to remind that “Nakhijevan is an authentic Azeri land and the only Azeri region bordering with Turkey”.

Aliev then carried on with a touching story about his undying father and his brothers.

“Alievs have forever remembered the bruising small and big stones of the mountainous paths of Zangezur, this grass, these trees and bushes saturating their hunger and giving them shelter. They were running away from Armenians. After long wanderings Nachijevan was like a Promised Land to them”.

The heart-breaking story about “Nakhijevan” and the unforgettable Heidar Aliev touched the president of Kazakhstan Nursultan Nazarbaev.

“Heidar Aliev and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (Turkey’s first president) dreamed about the unity of all Turkic nations,” he said with a catch in his voice. “Our forefathers ruled the broad plains from the Mediterranean Sea to Altai; they left great values to us. We think the time has come, at last, to popularize those before the world society… ”

Aliev switched to contemplations over Armenia’s Syunik region – Zangezur.

“The severing of the indigenous, historically Azeri region from Azerbaijan long ago and its accession to Armenia, geographically dismembered the great Turkic world. Consequently, the Turkic world’s functioning as one family, one force was halted for decades.”

Two documents were signed as a result of the summit: Nakhijevan Declaration and an Agreement on the creation of a Union of Cooperation among Turkic language speaking countries.

After signing the documents Aliev stated: “By the decisions made and steps taken today we have made the Turkic bond even stronger. Although, geographically Zangezur – an ancient Azeri region currently under Armenia's control – is located in the middle.” (By “Zangezur” he refers to the Armenian province Syunik.)

He also pointed out that the South Caucasus had big opportunities, and regional cooperation could become even more versatile.

“All the roads may open, all communications, all the countries in the region would be cooperating based on mutual interests. But it is also true that for as long as our lands are occupied, no cooperation is possible between Armenia and Azerbaijan,” said Aliev.

Turkish President Abdullah Gul, in his turn, said: “Azerbaijan’s territorial integrity is of great importance to us and we will always be by its side.”

“We hope and believe that soon Azerbaijan’s occupied lands will be liberated. That would be a fair solution in order for peace and stability to be established in the region. Turkey will do its best to contribute to the peaceful settlement of that conflict and to peace in the Caucasus. However, the first and the most important step in that direction has to, undoubtedly, be the liberation of Azerbaijan’s occupied lands,” concluded Gul.

This was only 100 km south of Armenia’s capital, Yerevan, in Nakhijevan, where the Turkish president voiced the “non-existing” Turkish preconditions while the Armenian President was thousands of miles away trying to explain and assure his Diaspora compatriots that there are no Turkish preconditions in the initialed protocols.

http://armenianow.com/?action=viewArticle&AID=4128&CID=3949&IID=1256&lng=eng

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Our Position on the Protocols; “NO” to the Current Document
[ 2009/10/09 | 10:46 ] diaspora politics

Declaration of the Nakhijevan Institute of Canada, Montreal, Quebec ; October 8, 2009

The Nakhijevan Institute of Canada, expressing the position of its members and supporters, does NOT accept the protocols between Armenia and Turkey in their current form and content, as an agreed upon basis of the opening of borders and establishment of diplomatic relations between the two countries. Our position is based on the following arguments:
Armenia`s internal weak position: the post-soviet period resulted in serious political and socio-economic problems, which are seriously hampering its development.

Politically, the country lacks a true democratic working life: the three state institutions are not working properly. Fraudulent elections do not permit expression of the will of the population.

The National Assembly, the legislative branch, is acting like a rubber stamp of the executive and the opposition is left powerless; the executive is suffering from legitimacy problem.

President Serj Sarkissian has a serious legitimacy problem as a result of fraudulent presidential elections in 2008. The rest of the executive branch represents a ‘coalition’ which is legally not defendable.

The judiciary is politicized, and reportedly, in many instances, acts not according to the Constitution and the laws, but in conformity with the guidelines of the ruling political forces.

There are also political prisoners. Media is under control and life of outspoken journalists is threatened. There are serious human rights violations and oppressive measures are used against young activists, in order to break their resistance.

Economically, power is in the hands of small minority of oligarchs, the super rich who also control the political processes and institutions and divide the country between themselves, like in medieval times.

Using state apparatus, privatization was used for capital accumulation by the few, which ended up dispossessing the population.

The resulting widespread social injustice has created a structural sharp unequal society with adverse consequences on the socio-economic and judicial aspects.

The environment is being seriously damaged in the mining zones, by local and international companies running after superprofits and exploitation: water, air, agricultural lands and products are polluted and in many instances poisoned, as well as health of the populations are affected.

The ruling political and economic forces, although in minority, by the use of police, internal security and sometimes the army, are keeping the majority population under control, making sure that the civil society does not get organized in a way that the resulting social movement brings about a legitimate regime change.

Also, by branding the flag of external threats from Turkey and Azerbaijan, the ruling forces intend to keep the population under fear from those threats. Economically and in legal matters the country is not ready for opening of border between the two countries.

Under these weak conditions and legitimacy problem of the president, Armenia cannot sign a fair agreement with Turkey for opening of the borders.

International ramifications of the protocols

The major international forces, United States, Russia and the European Union, each acting according to their global and regional interests, are using the internal situation of Armenia in order to impose some kind of ‘settlement’ on the long standing issues between Turkey and Armenia, and proceed later, to the resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

We note that this is not the first instance since the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Attempts in early nineties, the Turkish-Armenian reconciliation Commission (TARC) in early 21st century, were actions taken by the American various administrations to channel the Turkish-Armenian issues in accordance with the American objectives and interests, aiming at excluding Russia from South Caucasus, securing pipeline interests for Western multinationals and constituting a platform for further penetration in Eurasia from the Caucasus.

What is the possible role of president Serj Sargsyan under these circumstances? By acquiescing to the demands of the international players, he hopes to gain a legitimacy from abroad, which he does not currently possess.

And because of that same lack of legitimacy, willingly or unwillingly, he is a perfect tool in the hands of international players, like some heads of state of third world countries, who after being used by the international players, were later dumped.

In the case of Armenia-Turkey protocols, the international players are seemingly acting in unison to pressure Armenia. However, their interests are contradictory: Russia, on the one side; US and European Union, on the other.

Therefore, these protocols, if and when put into use, will unlikely bring peace and prosperity to the region, but will constitute source for harder competition and more conflicts.

Major contested points of the protocols:

The protocols, explicitly or implicitly, indicate the existence of Turkish preconditions, despite the declarations by the Armenian authorities to the contrary.

a) Indirect reference to mutual recognition of international borders makes the otherwise contentious border issues between the two countries as a precondition for the establishment of diplomatic relations.

b) The establishment of intergovernmental sub-commission to examine the problems of historical dimension leads to the examination of the issue of Genocide, contested by Turkey. Although, this does not stop the recognition efforts by the Diaspora abroad, it renders its path more difficult and can be used by the Turkish side to defer the issue indefinitely and attempt to influence the international efforts for its recognition. This constitutes one of the preconditions of the Turkish authorities.

c) Although there is no direct reference to the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, the absence of the concept of self-determination from the texts and a reference to non-intervention in internal affairs of other states can be used by Turkey to prevent Armenia from defending internationally the rights of Armenians of that region vis-ŕ-vis Azerbaijan.
This is a third declared precondition of the Turkish authorities.

CONCLUSION

As a conclusion, we reiterate our position NOT to accept the protocols to “guide relations between Armenia and Turkey” in their current form. The above exposed problems in the protocols indicate that they are not in accordance with the best interests of Armenia.

Furthermore, we consider that a president with legitimacy problem does NOT have the right to contract agreements in the name of the Armenian state nor does it have the right to deal with issues of concern for Armenians worldwide, without prior consultations with and approval by parties concerned.

President Serj Sargsyan behaves with the Diaspora with the same deceitful and disdainful manner that he treats the people of Armenia. Armenia separated from the Diaspora is an easy prey for antagonist forces.

Actions by the current authorities of Armenia, whose legitimacy is in doubt, can bring about that situation and threaten the very security of the population, in whose name they claim to initiate these protocols.

The Armenian population of Armenia has the sovereign right NOT to recognize agreements made by a president whose legitimacy is seriously in default, due to his falsified elections in order to reach into power and his continued efforts to violate human rights of many of its citizens.

Such agreements can be contested and considered not binding by the sovereign people of Armenia and by the legitimate authorities that they will initiate, as a consequence of forthcoming regime change.

Armenia must be saved from the hands of a tyrant in the making. The road to that is the resignation of Serj Sargsyan and the establishment of a democratically elected president and National Assembly who would deal with the important issues confronting Armenia and the Armenians.

NOTE: The above declaration, accompanied by a list of signatures has been sent to the Armenian Embassy in Ottawa, Canada.

http://hetq.am/en/politics/18672/

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Heritage Leader characterizes currents events as “second Sardarapat”
09.10.2009 21:35 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ “I hope something will change till tomorrow’s Protocol conclusion, in the opposite case our rallies will continue,” rally participant, Heritage Party Leader Raffi Hovhannesyan told PanARMENIAN.Net reporter. He added that following Protocols’ conclusion, the issues of presidential and governmental resignation will become more crucial.

Heritage Leader characterized current events as “second Sardarapat”, referring to Armenia’s diplomatic defeat in 1920 after the victory on the battlefield.

http://panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=37635