Armenian-Turkish Relations

[jgk3]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Well seruven, thank you for your interest in some of the content we post on issues we don't agree on with Turks. Though it's natural to feel appalled at times by the language used by your kinfolk and wish to apologize for it and feel responsible, in the end of the day it doesn't change much. Usually it's after you can convince your own people to exhibit a more ideal behavior that you can note some visible changes...

If you seek to appeal to Armenians to help you with this task, I don't really see much potential. At best, you can work with Armenians who continue to live in Turkey and help to normalize your conditions with them. Keep in mind though that reaching consensus on these touchy matters with Armenians in Turkey can be rather different from doing so with Armenians outside that country because Armenians living in Turkey are held by the balls, through culture, through what is legal to say and do and what is not, etc... Sure, recent developments in domestic politics might give them a little air to breathe, but I feel that the leaders of Turkey would prefer to lead this phenomenon in a Machiavellian manner (make the people feel rewarded for the basic rights they've been given back after years of being purged, silenced, oppressed, discriminated, whatever) instead of allowing this movement to tear the country apart. And so this is why it's in their interests to have the intellectual Turk crowd sugarcoat the whole prospect of normalization of relations with Armenia and Armenians. They know that it won't work on Armenians as a whole, but it is useful to for push this agenda nonetheless.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I asked you nicely seruven as I noticed that you weren't the typical turk that visits this forum and spreads lies and distortions all over the place.

You seem more open to the idea that Armenians were killed on the orders of the ottoman government than the other turks who have visited here. However, do not attempt to link Armenian suffering with whatever may have happened to turks during the same period. It was not the same and certianly the events of 1915-1922 were nothing new for Armenians. For 600 years we more or less experienced similar treatment from the ottoman empire, and the denial of it all to this day is even more of an indictation that the turk mentality of the past millennium has barely, if at all, changed.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I was trying to depict what's agreed upon in Turkey and what's not.

Well we basically know that. At first (and until about 10 years ago), they completely denied that Armenians were killed. Then they said some Armenians were killed but it was because of WW1 (former Turkish "Historical Society's" President Halacoglu made this very clear). Then they said many Armenians were killed but it was a civil war. Now there is this new theory of mutual genocides. Thus, Turkey's shape-shifting opinions should not be taken seriously. On the contrary, Armenians have had 1 position the entire time, backed up by thousands of pages of evidence.

Actually I don't give such a great importance to the term as long as you don't replace it with an insult. As for me, all this nation thing is theoretically nonsense (though I am a patriot).

My point was not to insult your character. My point was to show you that being lazy (or ignorant or devious, I'm not sure which one applies to you) and using different terms for specific things can be insulting, especially when they go against thousands of pages of eyewitness accounts and research by many historians. Its more insulting when the said event shaped most of our lives and is constantly misrepresented for one reason or another.

Listen guys, I'm just here to show some good intention and probably will give up writing in the forum in the near future. You may perceive Turks as a monolith, but we are not. When I registered to this forum and checked the posts written by Turks, I feel ashamed and annoyed. This was not only due to their inadequate manners, but also due to their political stand points which I strongly oppose. It seems Turks regularly register to this forum and I don't want them to read only posts sent by extreme Turkish nationalists.
In my first post, I tried to express my deep sorrow about "our loss" in 1915, but couldn't receive any meaningful response. Now, in an irrelavant thread, I encounter with your automatic hostile attitude. How very constructive..

About "our loss", thats nice and everything, but it doesn't pertain to reality. Turks only gained from the genocidal actions of the Young Turks while Armenians lost half their population, countless historical monuments and buildings, 3 thousand years of knowledge, businesses galore, an entire generation of artists and scientists, and not least, most of our ancestral lands which we had lived on for over 3,000 years. On top of that, for nearly 100 years, these crimes are denied and ignored by the Turkish state, and we are still threatened by Turkish nationalists just because we accuse them of these crimes (you even acknowledged this). So please understand if some Armenians don't immediately accept you with open arms, because even though you acknowledge many things that nationalists don't, it seems you are trying to convince us that the crimes committed by your state are not really a big deal. This is evident in the fact that you're downplaying the genocide as mere "events" which have not been fully understood, and trying to take it out of the political and social equation in the big picture of Turkish-Armenian relations, when in fact it is the driving force in the basis of our relations in the modern era.

[crusader1492]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Listen guys, I'm just here to show some good intention and probably will give up writing in the forum in the near future...

Your posts show that are a stereotypical Turk...the kind Armenian wrote about. Even if you leave, another intellectualy dishonest Turk will come on this forum and plead with Armenians to be "constructive" .

Anyway, as long as you attempt to diminish the Armenian Genocide and make efforts to assuage Turkish guilt, most will be happy if you leave.

[D3ADSY]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

What acts will be called genocide and who has the right to determine whether this term will be used or not?

How about the man who coined the word? Raphael Lemkin.

[Hye_Psycho]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

on the topic of 'is it genocide', there are still vermon in western acadamia that deny the term pertains to the 'massacre' of the armenian folk. (you'll find, most of these people have political agendas)

at an acadmic level, im forced to study scholarship of both sides, because offcourse 'history can be interpreted in many way' ... unless offcourse it involves the xxxs.

aside from complete denial, the integrity of the Armenian genocide continued to be attacked (by unamed race and religion). there used to be a common theme in genocide studies; the 'unique' uniqueness of the holocost. luckily this thought process has been slowly dissolving scince the mid-1990's, as the liberal/post liberal polemics run their course. but you can be your bottom dollar, this is whats being tought in universities... nothing compares to the suffering of the xxx. indignant 'survivors' such as Elie Wiesel go to repulsive lengths to gurentee that only passing reference is made to non-xxxish victims of WW2. look more into AJL, ADL ext..

i recomend Ward Churchill's A Little Matter of Genocide (1997) where he poignantly argues that the Armenian genocide of the indigenous peoples is 'unparalleled' and therefore paradigmatic.

[seruven]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

For 600 years we more or less experienced similar treatment from the ottoman empire

Is it really so? I honestly ask this question, beacuse I have never heard that Armenians have such a claim. Though I know there were also problems in 19th century..

Well we basically know that.

Actually, I don't think you know much about current Turkish society (which is natural). I wanted to stress the fact that even nationalist intellectuals acknowledge death of hundreds of thousands of Armenians. There is no common denial policy regarding deaths.

At first (and until about 10 years ago), they completely denied that Armenians were killed.

You are right, 10-20 years ago everything was completely different. The change occured due to the increases in the ways of communication. It's in the early 90s that Turkey started to have privately owned TV channels. Nowadays, the published media reflects a wide range of political thoughts. And no need to mention internet.
Thus, I believe these factors have tremendous effects in the transformation of Turkish society.

My point was to show you that being lazy (or ignorant or devious, I'm not sure which one applies to you) and using different terms for specific things

I simply refuse to pick a term. I appreciate its importance for you as it shaped all your future, but that's futile for me. History is written by the winners (the strong ones) and easily influenced by current politics. If there were 30 million Armenians living in the US, Turkey would by force recognize the "genocide". Or if there were 1000 Armenians living in the world, nobody, simply nobody would care what happened to them in 1915.

thousands of pages of eyewitness accounts and research by many historians

I am sure you have really convincing material. You can easily persuade me whatever you believe in. The problem is it is also valid for the opposite side. When I listen to Halaçoğlu or watch a documentary denying the "genocide", I couldnot find things which can easily be refuted by logic.
Hence I try to pick the facts commonly accepted by respectable Turks whom I can trust.

Turks only gained from the genocidal actions of the Young Turks while Armenians lost half their population, countless historical monuments and buildings, 3 thousand years of knowledge, businesses galore, an entire generation of artists and scientists,

When I used "our loss", I didn't mean that Turks also had their own loss. I consider what Armenians lost was also lost by Turks. Armenians were a historical part of this land, but they were swept away. The loss was not only cultural, but also sociological. By losing Armenians and later Greeks and Joos, the society lost its bourgeois which was a dramatic sociological shock.
Turkish people may not be aware of this fact, but specifically by losing Armenians, they are deprived of "Millet-i Sadıka". Thus, I said "our loss".

we are still threatened by Turkish nationalists just because we accuse them of these crimes (you even acknowledged this).

And you have your own extremists claiming that the only good Turk is the dead one.

it seems you are trying to convince us that the crimes committed by your state are not really a big deal. This is evident in the fact that you're downplaying the genocide as mere "events" which have not been fully understood,

Nope, I don't want to convince you anything. I even wasn't eager to share my personal opinions related to history, genocide, etc. Here I just tried to discuss opinions of Volkan Vural, but all of a sudden you have started to question me. I don't know, maybe it's natural whenever you encounter with a Turk.

trying to take it out of the political and social equation in the big picture of Turkish-Armenian relations, when in fact it is the driving force in the basis of our relations in the modern era.

Isn't that what Sargsyan and Gül try to do indeed? Didn't they meet and talked about everything but the "genocide"? Maybe, they discovered it will be more beneficial for their people.

Anyway, as long as you attempt to diminish the Armenian Genocide and make efforts to assuage Turkish guilt, most will be happy if you leave.

I didn't tell that I will leave in order to full your eyes with tears : ) Simply the holiday of Ramadan will end, and I won't have that much time to read and write here.

How about the man who coined the word? Raphael Lemkin

I don't know much about him, but I don't think he is the ultimate authority in order to determine which historical event is genocide and which is not (even if he is the one coined the word). I was rather refering to an objective international institution, not a fleshy creature. International institutions may sometimes be biased (actually I believe they are most of the time), but that's much more valid for individuals. For example, I wonder how Lemkin's thoughts would have changed if Turks were Christians and Armenians were Muslim.

Lastly,
@jgk3
I appreciate your suggestions and you certainly have points.

I want to thank all the responders. This is what I would call a civil discussion.
S.

[Hye_Psycho]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I don't know much about him, but I don't think he is the ultimate authority in order to determine which historical event is genocide and which is not (even if he is the one coined the word). I was rather refering to an objective international institution, not a fleshy creature. International institutions may sometimes be biased (actually I believe they are most of the time), but that's much more valid for individuals. For example, I wonder how Lemkin's thoughts would have changed if Turks were Christians and Armenians were Muslim.

Lemkin did indeed coin the term genocide. he conjured the term trying to describe the events of 1915 and the tragidy which was brought upon the Assyrians in iraq. he was of xxxish origin, so your religion argument is futile.

in any case the term genocide itself has been appropriatd by many different groups and institutions to suit a variety of political ends. in fact the term and its political/moral/economic flesh would probably not exist if not for the xxxish genocide and subsequint european guilt i.e making it a crime in international law, estabishing organisations of prevent, compensation, moral justice/sympathy, free land ext.. ext.. the 'fruits' of being exterminated (the holocost industry). its absolutly not absurd to suggest term 'genoicde' has no one fixed definition, and indeed has many sub-meanings. one only has to look at the rhetoric of modern leaders to understand the sheer width of its usage -Medvedev/putin describing Georgian aggression in Ossetia as 'genocide'

above all Seruven, beyond the flesh surrounding the term genocide, its the fundementals that we want. the xxxs appropriated the meaning of genocide recognition and turned into a glitz and glamor industry. what we want.. recognition and a simple apoligy. others like myself would like more, but thats for another time.

and for your information the International Center for Transitional Justice, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, and the United Nations' Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities.. among many many other institutions recognise the events as genocide.

the foremost academic socioty in genocide studies "International Association of Genocide Scholars" also agree.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Actually, I don't think you know much about current Turkish society (which is natural). I wanted to stress the fact that even nationalist intellectuals acknowledge death of hundreds of thousands of Armenians. There is no common denial policy regarding deaths.

Again, I already knew that, but as you said maybe others don't.

History is written by the winners (the strong ones) and easily influenced by current politics. If there were 30 million Armenians living in the US, Turkey would by force recognize the "genocide". Or if there were 1000 Armenians living in the world, nobody, simply nobody would care what happened to them in 1915.

This is true, but reality is seperate from the wishes of the 'winners'. I choose to stick to reality.

I am sure you have really convincing material. You can easily persuade me whatever you believe in. The problem is it is also valid for the opposite side. When I listen to Halaçoğlu or watch a documentary denying the "genocide", I couldnot find things which can easily be refuted by logic.

I can. And you could easily refute them too if you were simply familiar with all the eye-witness accounts of civilians, government officials and military personnel from the American, British, French, German, Austro-Hungarian, Arab and Turkish sides. All these eye-witness accounts basically tell the same story and they are consistent with the Armenian accounts as well.

Halacoglu is a liar, or he is a very poor "historian". You said that 'there is no common denial policy regarding deaths', but Halacoglu states that AT MOST 60,000 Armenians died, when the most conservative estimates are over 800,000. He has major holes in his logic, which as I said, can be easily refuted if one were simply familiar with the first-hand sources from all the sides of the conflict. Same goes for the people making these "documentaries", its clear they are not familiar with over 95% of the first-hand sources. Or maybe they are familiar and they choose to ignore them.

When I used "our loss", I didn't mean that Turks also had their own loss. I consider what Armenians lost was also lost by Turks. Armenians were a historical part of this land, but they were swept away. The loss was not only cultural, but also sociological. By losing Armenians and later Greeks and Joos, the society lost its bourgeois which was a dramatic sociological shock.
Turkish people may not be aware of this fact, but specifically by losing Armenians, they are deprived of "Millet-i Sadıka". Thus, I said "our loss".

In this context you are correct.

And you have your own extremists claiming that the only good Turk is the dead one.

The people saying that didn't destroy half your nation, they didn't ravage 80% of your people's territory by killing them and taking their property, they don't belong to the 2nd largest army in NATO, they don't have billions of dollars of military equipment from the US, they are not holding your country under a virtual siege by blockading over 80% of your border, they are not denying vital parts of your nation's history, they are not paying lobbyists all around the world to deny that history, and they are not aiding your hostile neighbors with billions in military equipment, and having them threaten your country by claiming your capital city is part of their country (as Baku claims that Yerevan belongs to Azerbaijan). There is a huge difference between the extremism when you look at the reality.

Nope, I don't want to convince you anything. I even wasn't eager to share my personal opinions related to history, genocide, etc. Here I just tried to discuss opinions of Volkan Vural, but all of a sudden you have started to question me. I don't know, maybe it's natural whenever you encounter with a Turk.

No offense but I don't give a crap about Volkan Vural. The genocide issue is more important in Turkish-Armenian relations than the opinions of some random politician. It also interests me as well, so there you have it.

[seruven]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

No offense but I don't give a crap about Volkan Vural. The genocide issue is more important in Turkish-Armenian relations than the opinions of some random politician.

But it's these random politicians that shape Turkish-Armenian relations and how people percieve the "genocide" issue. Isn't it so?
For me, having someone from Foreign Affairs talking like that is big news, ArmSurvival. We didn't use to have people in the bureaucracy that mild, understanding and constructive.
Maybe you believe that everything between Armenia and Turkey can change over a night, but I don't believe in that. Things will change gradually. (and signs have already started to emerge.)

The people saying that didn't destroy half your nation, they didn't ravage 80% of your people's territory by killing them and taking their property,

Come on, the nationalist Turks that threaten you didn't do such things, either. You are able to make distinction between the past and present, right?
I hate extreme Turkish nationalists and extreme Armenian nationalists equally. They do nothing, but harm their own countries. You say some Azeris claim that Yerevan is a part of Azerbaijan. I don't know if this is their state policy and whether they are serious or not. But as long as, it's a claim of some radical Azeris, don't bother with such things. I may have claims over Palo Alto (due to special interest in the economics department of Stanford University), but who cares??
We should stay firm against all these lunatic extremists independent of their nationalities.