Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[Yedtarts]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

That's how Armenian women should wear

[Yedtarts]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

For me dressing sexy is nice but dressing s-lutty is bad. The media don’t put a difference between the 2, they bombard our teens with the western images, such Kardashian (the s-lut), P. Hilton (big s-lut), Ch. Agulara and B. Spears. Teenagers don’t have the maturity to judge which is sexy and which is s-lutty, they think that’s the new fashion and they’re following it.

[UrMistake]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

omg what is wrong with u,armenia generaly have to move on people that think like that do only harm,they can have there own opinion but they must know that other have the right to do what ever they wont and give no xxxx to them.
Lets talk Mos about they most ugly hearcut that yerevans male population got.or the xxxx up mentality.Most of them migrating lets say Cyprus or Greece and POP suddenly they are same people as greeks only that they were really pointy shoes.

Siggie revision (not sure how much this helps, but couldn't resist...)

OMG. What is wrong with you? Armenia generally has to move on. People that think like that only do harm. They can have their own opinion, but they must know that others have a right to do what ever they want.

Mos, let's talk about the ugliest haircut that Yerevantsi men have or the messed up mentality. Most of them are migrating (? maybe meant visiting) to Cyprus or Greece and suddenly they are the same people as Greeks, only they wear really pointy shoes.

Haha u made my day.
Thanks Siggie u made more clear most of the part,i meant that people when travel places there minds open,so then they can see the wrongs in there lifes.

Lets face it most of the population are following some personalitys, which made them self successfulls,and most of them are oligarchs and underboss,in our days we call them businessman.
So i think that and the poverty tend to make this kind of societys.

[Anoush]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Yeah, we were talking about abuse, but you brought up burying apples.

I made myself clear already about abuse, abusive women and domestic abuse. When I added about burying apples, it is because I saw those young girls on you-tube and I didn't think that burying apples publicly was the right way and I expressed my opinion on it that I disagreed them going public; I think I am allowed to speak my mind about it, no?

I don't think that's what they were saying. They could be protesting the double standard and the archaic and, in my opinion, embarrassing tradition with the sheets and apples. I think that's the message more than the "We don't want to be virgins" that you're claiming.

I am not from Armenia Siggie, and I don't know about a tradition of sheets mixed with apples. What I understood that they were publicly burying apples to get rid of the idea with Armenian girls keeping virginity.

I disagree with you here too. I think we can and we do judge people based on their clothing/appearance all the time. You're right we do live in an age where women can dress like that. That is their choice, but they will be judged on what they wear regardless.

It's alright to disagree but I gave you an answer afterwards to further express myself as you seemed to be unclear about my thoughts. When I said not to be judged, I thought that you would have understood that going modernized meant but without going to extreme of things or showing too much skin. My answer on this was basically directed to what Mos was finding fault in the girls in RA. He was saying about the girls in Armenia wearing more revealing clothing and he found great fault in that. What I am saying in reply to his complaining is this. The girls in Armenia are entitled to get modernized and go along with the rest of the world and somewhat along with western civilization. After all, we are not living in turkey and the turn of the previous century. And if they wish to wear mini skirts (and there is a variation of lengths between mini skirts and mini skirts), and a bit low cut dresses to be and feel more feminine, I don't see anything wrong with that. On that basis they shouldn't be judged harshly by Armenian men, of course if they don't go too far revealing a lot of legs and a lot of skin on the breast (everything in moderation) in my understanding and standards. After all, the men are more problematic and overbearing in Armenia in most cases than the women especially after marriage. So I basically said, Mos let them become at least somewhat more modernized and don't you or other men in there judge them harshly for that.

[Anoush]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

For me dressing sexy is nice but dressing s-lutty is bad. The media don’t put a difference between the 2, they bombard our teens with the western images, such Kardashian (the s-lut), P. Hilton (big s-lut), Ch. Agulara and B. Spears. Teenagers don’t have the maturity to judge which is sexy and which is s-lutty, they think that’s the new fashion and they’re following it.

You're absolutely right. There is a difference between nice and sexy and s-lutty attire. Yed, when teenagers start following s-luttish attire from Hilton's, Agulara's or Kardashian's, a parent must bud in, show and teach them the right way. In my daughter's school I see a few girls already wearing such s-luttish attire and colouring their hair with the craziest colours. But most of the girls do not. Why? Because their parents teach and direct them the right way. As a parent you're entitled to do that and most of us do it and succeed.

[Siggie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I made myself clear already about abuse, abusive women and domestic abuse. When I added about burying apples, it is because I saw those young girls on you-tube and I didn't think that burying apples publicly was the right way and I expressed my opinion on it that I disagreed them going public; I think I am allowed to speak my mind about it, no?

Yes, you were clear about the abuse, but you brought up the apples which I suppose is related in the sense that it's a more modern idea.

I am not from Armenia Siggie, and I don't know about a tradition of sheets mixed with apples. What I understood that they were publicly burying apples to get rid of the idea with Armenian girls keeping virginity.

I'm not from Armenia either, but I would find out more about the symbolism before saying they have a lot of nerve for protesting. How can you find fault with their message if you don't know what their message is?

There is a tradition where the groom's parents get the sheets the morning following the wedding. If they find blood and are pleased that the bride was a virgin, they send a basket of apples to the bride or her family. This is the archaic tradition they are protesting. They are no necessarily saying that they want to have sex, but they are protesting this double standard where only the bride's sexual history is subject to inquiry. That's a great tradition and super healthy for all.
I think what's also at issue is there being others involved. Whether the bride or groom are virgins and whether each desires that should be between the couple, in my opinion. It shouldn't be the business of the groom's family or bride's and definitely not for all their guests who visit (and note whether they see apples or not). Further, the men are expected to have had sex before, but the women no... So who are the men having sex with? Prostitutes... Yes.
But the protests were about more than just that. That was one part of it, but they were demanding better treatment overall.

It's alright to disagree but I gave you an answer afterwards to further express myself as you seemed to be unclear about my thoughts. When I said not to be judged, I thought that you would have understood that going modernized meant but without going to extreme of things or showing too much skin. My answer on this was basically directed to what Mos was finding fault in the girls in RA. He was saying about the girls in Armenia wearing more revealing clothing and he found great fault in that. What I am saying in reply to his complaining is this. The girls in Armenia are entitled to get modernized and go along with the rest of the world and somewhat along with western civilization. After all, we are not living in turkey and the turn of the previous century. And if they wish to wear mini skirts (and there is a variation of lengths between mini skirts and mini skirts), and a bit low cut dresses to be and feel more feminine, I don't see anything wrong with that. On that basis they shouldn't be judged harshly by Armenian men, of course if they don't go too far revealing a lot of legs and a lot of skin on the breast (everything in moderation) in my understanding and standards. After all, the men are more problematic and overbearing in Armenia in most cases than the women especially after marriage. So I basically said, Mos let them become at least somewhat more modernized and don't you or other men in there judge them harshly for that.

Well of course it's alright to disagree. I am merely telling you that people judge, they'll always judge. What you were saying about tolerating some of the new more moderate fashions was not clear. I agree with you that not all skirts that are above the knee are a problem and it can be tasteful. Without discussing lengths of skirts and degree of cleavage and such, let me say that I am not suggesting that we wear skirts to the floor and turtlenecks of course. Assuming my "moderate" resembles yours, then we are in agreement on that.

[Siggie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Her's just one article, but it references others you can read...

Burying the red apple
Lara Aharonian

Yes we finally did it and gave a symbolic end to a thousand year tradition imposed on Armenian women to keep their bodies and sexualities under control.

For those who are not aware about this tradition, here is a brief description: the “red apple ritual” is a tradition to prove to the immediate family, the in-laws, the neighbours, close and extended families and relatives, co-workers, teachers, friends, acquaintances that the new bride was in fact pure and a virgin. The ritual consists of the bride’s family and in-laws visiting the newly weds after their first night as a married couple, to insure that everything was “ok”. By”ok” we mean that the bride was a virgin and the new husband is satisfied with his choice. Then the celebrations starts; food, drinks and of course red apples are offered as a symbol of the bride’s virginity to the guests and relatives and whoever is present to ensure that the tradition is kept, that the bride is a virgin and the future of the nation is secured. In some regions a piece of physical proof is sometimes demanded; a bloodstained sheet shown to the mother in-law, for example.

And almost a month ago, on March 8th, the international day of women, while most of the post-soviet republics including Armenia, were distributing flowers to their women and girls, inviting them to supper or offering chocolates and celebrating beauty and motherhood day. We, the crazy people at the Women’s Center, decided to walk down the streets with big posters stating “ Women don’t need flowers and chocolates on March 8, they need rights, equal opportunities and a life without violence!!” and inviting people to the burial of the Red Apple.

After a hectic walk, with police stopping us three times, wondering what we were up to and letting us go after interrogation, and some conservative young men harassing us and mocking our march, we finally started the ceremony of the burial. The place was prepared in the backyard of our centre; the women and some men gathered and started digging the grave where the red apples will rest eternally. One of our members was playing traditional burial music on her flute to accompany the ritual. We were happy, chanting, celebrating the end of a tradition oppressing us and controlling our right to our own body. Another member read a eulogy of the red apple that she had prepared, relating the story of the tradition and its meaning in the Armenian society and stating the importance of this historic event. After burying the last Apple, we gathered around the grave and discussed our personal perceptions of the event.
…
This was not easy, we received a lot of threats and criticism from groups of people mainly conservative young men (who even threatened to come and help us in loosing our virginity or called us xxxxxs and xxxxs or traitors) For the past couple of weeks, just reading the comments on some of the blogs run by these conservative groups gave me the chill. But who said it was easy to change things? Yes we took some precautions; we started locking the centre’s door. We started watching behind our backs to see that nobody was following us… fearing that some bad thing will come out from all of this. We were everywhere, in the media, on the radio and TV. And then we had also groups of girls stopping us on the streets smiling, telling us we did the right thing and that they support us but were too shy to join our march.

So we buried the Red Apple on March 8 in Yerevan, now we need to share the good news with the rest of the country!

For more info and coverage of the Red Apple Burial Ceremony, visit the following sites:

http://frontlineclub.com/blogs/onnik...ing-the-red-ap...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB5uSaTBGdI&feature=channel_page

http://jezebel.com/5170699/like-a-vi...s-want-to-see-...
http://globalvoicesonline.org/specia...l-womens-day-2...

http://ditord.com/2009/03/10/tradition-gone-wild-the-red-apple/

[Anoush]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Yes, you were clear about the abuse, but you brought up the apples which I suppose is related in the sense that it's a more modern idea.






I'm not from Armenia either, but I would find out more about the symbolism before saying they have a lot of nerve for protesting. How can you find fault with their message if you don't know what their message is?

Whereas I didn't know the entire story about the sheets and that they show the blood to the groom's family, relatives, friends and acquaintances; but I got the gist nonetheless, I believe. I mean the main part that they want to do away with virginity. I found fault to the fact that they went publicly opposing this. Though I didn't know that at the same token they were questioning as to why it must be continued this tradition with women only while the males can be completely liberal from it. But I have learned now that they were also complaining rightfully to do away with the violent behaviours of most males in Armenia that continue it till today. Of course I am totally against those belligerent and outright misbehaved male population in RA who mistreat their women. However I am not our girls' judge or juror whether they kept their virginity before marriage or not; it's their business and their business alone and I do agree that why should the males have all the liberation to do it before marriage with whomever they want. Plus it's no one's business whether they are or they are not virgins. It's the couple's business alone.

On a side note and this is my observation; women or men when they tend to have numerous sexual partners before they find their true love and marry him or her; they seem to have the tendency to continue the trend of more easily than not going to other partners when things go a bit wrong in their marriage. And because males tend to have numerous sex partners with other females before they tie the knot, in my opinion their previous sexual habits come to resurface again easily even after they married. This is my opinion of course; but I think I may be right. And if a girl does the same before marriage, then she will also easily continue her previous habits with other males versus to the girls who stayed celibate before marriage.

There is a tradition where the groom's parents get the sheets the morning following the wedding. If they find blood and are pleased that the bride was a virgin, they send a basket of apples to the bride or her family. This is the archaic tradition they are protesting. They are no necessarily saying that they want to have sex, but they are protesting this double standard where only the bride's sexual history is subject to inquiry. That's a great tradition and super healthy for all.
I think what's also at issue is there being others involved. Whether the bride or groom are virgins and whether each desires that should be between the couple, in my opinion. It shouldn't be the business of the groom's family or bride's and definitely not for all their guests who visit (and note whether they see apples or not). Further, the men are expected to have had sex before, but the women no... So who are the men having sex with? Prostitutes... Yes.
But the protests were about more than just that. That was one part of it, but they were demanding better treatment overall.

Thank you Siggie for the several sites and the information you have provided. I also find the old traditions to be violent ones and unfair and very paternal directed only towards the girls alone. It isn't right or just in this day and age to show that bloody sheet to everyone and having been judged and finally approved by the groom's family and the rest of the people. It is old fashion I agree to this, but again I still think that they had much nerve to go and complain about it publicly, but I see now that they had a number of several messages tied to the apple burying procession. Though they were right to demand overall better treatment from their male counterparts. Most I heard are abusive towards their women and in this day and age it's intolerable. They should be jailed and perhaps the women's brothers should go after her abusive man and beat the hell out of him to teach him a good lesson not to raise hand on women just because they are the weaker gender.

Well of course it's alright to disagree. I am merely telling you that people judge, they'll always judge. What you were saying about tolerating some of the new more moderate fashions was not clear. I agree with you that not all skirts that are above the knee are a problem and it can be tasteful. Without discussing lengths of skirts and degree of cleavage and such, let me say that I am not suggesting that we wear skirts to the floor and turtlenecks of course. Assuming my "moderate" resembles yours, then we are in agreement on that.

Well I'll try to show you some pictures to the ones I find tasteful and that I agree with, then you'll know.

[Anoush]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

These are some of the fashions that I find it in good taste.

[Anoush]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

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