Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

[Mos]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Just as you are able to cope with those things coming from the West, so too can your daughter, sister, and mother. I don't see you guys expressing concern over the boys growing up with western influence and advocating that we limit their freedoms in order to dictate their values, beliefs, and behavior.

You need to give your daughter guidance and protection in order to make sure she grows up right and with good values. With good parenting it's possible. Well when it comes to males, there are negative influences that can affect them also (though can affect females also). For example, some of the dangerous cults (satanic, goths, etc), many of these "alternative cultures" advocated rebellion and are anti-family in nature, they also advocate against religious values. You have in a similar manner homosexuality. And the list goes on.

And what are the non-curruptive messages and values that are coming from elsewhere? What are the values you want women to have? What are the values you want men to have?

The non-corruptive 'messages' is protecting what our already established culture and traditions. I want women to remain how they are according to our culture and conservative Christian values. I highly value the modest of women in both dress and behaviour, the values of being family-oriented, the value (to an extent) of innocence, and knowing their traditional place in society. I'm not asking for change really, all of this we have and is part of our culture, always has been, just asking that our culture and traditions not be corrupted.

[Siggie]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Sure there's always change, but you can still maintain your core values, gender roles, family values, in spite of all this change. Any society that transforms its culture as a responce to globalised influence is a weak one and that culture won't survive long if its fundamental core can change in such a way. Case example, during that "diversity parade" in Yerevan during the summer, many patriotic Youth went out to counter demonstrate against this parade which seeks to transform Armenia society with such foreign, anti-Armenian, destructive values: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdi1w...eature=related (and note the organizer of that parade was a Western Armenian from diaspora).



For a case example, just look at that "diversity parade" that took place during the summer in Yerevan. See what the patriots are saying about their goals and concerns about such outside groups trying to radically change Armenian society into something it isn't. Our mother's, sisters, wives are a blessing for us and want our blessings to be protected from the some of the corrupt values that come from the West. I wouldn't want my daughter, for example, to be taken over by these values, see how her mentality allows other men to take advantage of her, see her used, see her thinking that showing skin is the right thing to do, or for her to think having a family and being connected to your family is a thing of the past, and for her to know that I'm always there to protect her and help her make the right choices in life. There's no hate or ignorance in this. It's a desire to retain traditional values in spite of globalisation and cultural change in the world.

Just as you are able to cope with those things coming from the West, so too can your daughter, sister, and mother. I don't see you guys expressing concern over the boys growing up with western influence and advocating that we limit their freedoms in order to dictate their values, beliefs, and behavior.

And what are the non-curruptive messages and values that are coming from elsewhere? What are the values you want women to have? What are the values you want men to have?

[Mos]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Mos the traditional roles you speak of work well in a traditional society but society is changing drastically thus some of these roles will also need to change. Remember the only constant is change itself.

Sure there's always change, but you can still maintain your core values, gender roles, family values, in spite of all this change. Any society that transforms its culture as a responce to globalised influence is a weak one and that culture won't survive long if its fundamental core can change in such a way. Case example, during that "diversity parade" in Yerevan during the summer, many patriotic Youth went out to counter demonstrate against this parade which seeks to transform Armenia society with such foreign, anti-Armenian, destructive values: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdi1w...eature=related (and note the organizer of that parade was a Western Armenian from diaspora).

Jeff, there's nothing to figure out when you're not required or encouraged to think at all. Their utopia involves automatons who are programmed to act a certain way and there is no deviation.

I think we need to cease trying to understand their position in terms of logic and evidence because that's not the basis for the argument. The basis for their argument is ignorance, insecurity, intolerance, and hate.

For a case example, just look at that "diversity parade" that took place during the summer in Yerevan. See what the patriots are saying about their goals and concerns about such outside groups trying to radically change Armenian society into something it isn't. Our mother's, sisters, wives are a blessing for us and want our blessings to be protected from the some of the corrupt values that come from the West. I wouldn't want my daughter, for example, to be taken over by these values, see how her mentality allows other men to take advantage of her, see her used, see her thinking that showing skin is the right thing to do, or for her to think having a family and being connected to your family is a thing of the past, and for her to know that I'm always there to protect her and help her make the right choices in life. There's no hate or ignorance in this. It's a desire to retain traditional values in spite of globalisation and cultural change in the world.

[Haykakan]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

What I'm more curious about is how all these alleged "prostitute" women will turn out when they feel like settling down and having a family...

I mean, seriously, do you think that desire comes from traditional Armenian culture and is under attack in the west? If that were the case, people wouldn't be getting married at all.

The reasons divorces happen is because both the man and the women probably did not figure each other, nor themselves, before they tied the knot. Maybe you prefer a society where people don't need to figure themselves out, and let fear of being socially ostracized or punished figure it out for them.

People would get married in the past out of neccessity more then anything else because you could not make it alone as a man or a woman. Here again technology and other forms of progress have allowed human beings to thrive and survive on their own. People get divorced more now then previous generations because they simply do not need each other as much anymore.
Mos the traditional roles you speak of work well in a traditional society but society is changing drastically thus some of these roles will also need to change. Remember the only constant is change itself.

[Siggie]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

What I'm more curious about is how all these alleged "prostitute" women will turn out when they feel like settling down and having a family...

I mean, seriously, do you think that desire comes from traditional Armenian culture and is under attack in the west? If that were the case, people wouldn't be getting married at all.

The reasons divorces happen is because both the man and the women probably did not figure each other, nor themselves, before they tied the knot. Maybe you prefer a society where people don't need to figure themselves out, and let fear of being socially ostracized or punished figure it out for them.

Jeff, there's nothing to figure out when you're not required or encouraged to think at all. Their utopia involves automatons who are programmed to act a certain way and there is no deviation.

I think we need to cease trying to understand their position in terms of logic and evidence because that's not the basis for the argument. The basis for their argument is ignorance, insecurity, intolerance, and hate.

[jgk3]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

What I'm more curious about is how all these alleged "prostitute" women will turn out when they feel like settling down and having a family...

I mean, seriously, do you think that desire comes from traditional Armenian culture and is under attack in the west? If that were the case, people wouldn't be getting married at all.

The reasons divorces happen is because both the man and the women probably did not figure each other, nor themselves, before they tied the knot. Maybe you prefer a society where people don't need to figure themselves out, and let fear of being socially ostracized or punished figure it out for them.

[Mos]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

You make a good point there. I do believe that part of the backwardsness many armenians have regarding women stems from the fact that we have lived with or next to islamic people for so long.

I really don't see how it's backwardness. I see the objectification of women, the tolerance of women that act like prostitutes, the degradation of women as much more backward than encouraging modesty, family values, and traditional gender roles in which women are respected in a more moral manner.

[Mos]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

The goal has not been to change the gender roles or to pretend that men and women are identical. We aren't, but just because we do have some differences doesn't mean we should be treated differently. There are lots of feminists who disagree as to whether we should have equal outcomes or equal opportunity. This is a debate I've been caught up in in a different circle recently. So, I really don't know how it is that you can claim unequivocally that "the goal of feminism is _________" when there's not agreement among self-identified feminists.

What you fail to see is that the reason why men and women must be treated as equal citizens and given equal job opportunity TODAY is precisely because of the feminists who fought for that. We didn't used to enjoy even that much. Yet, you still present feminism as a negative. Those very beliefs which you stated are feminist ideals. Don't let people who hold extreme positions build strawmen for you. What you have undoubtedly seen and find so disagreeable are almost certainly strawmen of "the feminist position" (of itself absurd because there isn't one position).

No movement in the world is united wholly. That being said, I'm talking about the general effects of Feminism that has affected the West. Yes, the initial goals of Feminism was rather political (equal suffrage, political rights, etc) but the movement also began to transform culture, this notion of "empowering women" began to destroy the family unit, it emphasised and encouraged women to be more independent outside the family unit. So with decades of such idealistic influence, the mainstream societies in the West lost the importance of the family unit, women became more aggressive, and men became more oppressed. For example, It became a norm for women to disengage from their parents at an early age, be involved in numerous romantic relationships without marrying, put off having a family and being in a stable marriage. This mindset has increased more and more, and this mindset cannot be allowed in Armenia and Armenian society, because by destroying our family values, by having corrupt women, your nation same-way falters. Tell me how is the Dutch nation doing? Their multicultural and ultraliberal values and ideals have turned that society into a cesspool of immorality and the Dutch identity is something of the past.

There's a modesty and innocence that has to be sustained in our society. A woman should stay a woman, in her behaviour and goals, a man should stay a man. The importance of modesty in both behaviour and dress should also be held high, same with the importance of staying and being connected with your family till you create your own family. A woman's dedication to her children, husband, and family is a rather holy dedication and of course in return such a woman should be respected for what she does for her own family. Take a look at all the dysfunctional families, the numbers of divorces, and bad marriages that take place in the West. That's another consequence of your society being transformed by such values.

[Siggie]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Gegev and Mos, why don't you two just be honest with everyone and convert to Islam? You are obviously ideologically already 99% of the way there - just take that final little step and join the ranks of the turbaned fanatics who share your world view.

You make a good point there. I do believe that part of the backwardsness many armenians have regarding women stems from the fact that we have lived with or next to islamic people for so long.

Oh good, so it's not just me that sees this similarity between the ideals that Mos and Gegev seem to be promoting and the very reasons why my parents fled Islamic Iran years and years ago? It's rather ironic; they left everything they knew and had to have me grow up with the same opportunities and freedoms that these two think are undermining Armenian society/culture. I wonder what they would think about Mos's and Gegev's opinions. Afterall, Mos at the very least, thinks I should defer to my parents' judgments and decisions in all cases.

[Haykakan]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Gegev and Moz, why don't you two just be honest with everyone and convert to Islam? You are obviously ideologically already 99% of the way there - just take that final little step, join the ranks of the turbaned fanatics, and (if it is at all possible) go live in a hole in Afghanistan with the rest of your kind.

You make a good point there. I do believe that part of the backwardsness many armenians have regarding women stems from the fact that we have lived with or next to islamic people for so long.