The Dangers of the Liberal Mind in Armenia

[Mos]

Re: The Dangers of the Liberal Mind in Armenia

This is mere hyperbole and you are merely scaremongering. The solution to Armenia's problems certainly isn't for Armenians to become insular, reactionary or emulate the Turks. That crowd are massively underresourced in terms of social investment and the Islamic is facing a demographic crisis in the future.

It's not a hyperbole. Looking into the future the demographic situation is a serious problem. I am not saying to emulate Turks, I'm saying that in addition to investing in our social structures we need provisions that will encourage having more children and heavily restrict or ban abortion (which is being misused for purposes of abortion based on gender of baby).

The masses have to be kept "happy", if hundreds of thousands of Diasporan Armenian youth will visit Armenia because of the nightlife, then I will support the expanding of the nightlife scene in Armenia. If we can attract them to visit, invest, and move back to Armenia by those means, than be it. They should feel themselves at home, and yes, people will say then we will lose our true "culture", but wake up, in modern day Armenia, the current culture is more islamic/turkish than Armenian. We have to turn assimilation around, and use the tactics the West is using. By being stubbornly "traditionalist", we won't return 80% of the Armenian population back to Armenia, nor will we be able to let them at least feel Armenian. There is only one solution to this, and it is by means of a "soft" approach.

In general, the masses are not important. We want them to live in Armenia, work in Armenia, pay tax in Armenia, invest in Armenia and enjoy Armenia. It is better for the masses to be busy with the things they like, than be politically active, as 99% of the time the masses are politically destructive when politically active.

What is important is that the small "elite", the people in power, are "traditionalist" and "nationalist". What is important is that this small "elite" is organised and has a long-term vision.

Furthermore, there is no point in speaking about multiculturalism in Armenia, as this will not happen now, nor in the near future.

I think this is one of the biggest mistakes of (nationalistic) Armenians. They want the masses to be politically active, to be nationalist, to think of their country 24/7, to know all the names of Armenian freedom fighters, to have a big family, to have a lot of children with Armenian names, to go to Church, etc. Wake up, this just doesn't work. Let the masses be the masses, it is better to attract the 80% of the Armenian population in the world by means which actually do attract the masses, than waste your time on a defect ideology.

All the time and energy of the small group of really self-respecting educated Armenians should be spent into being in power in the Republic of Armenia and mainting this power.

I am not expecting for every Armenian to be like that. Of course we need to encourage in our society such patriotism and social morals. We need to make sure Armenia always stays as the cultural centre of the Armenian nation, we cannot compromise on our independence. Rather than adjust to Diasporan Armenians and some of their Western desires, those Diasporan Armenians should adjust to a more conservative, christian society, and control some of the negative desires that they acquired in the West. Expanding "nightlife" should be the least of our concerns, especially given what we need to invest and expand in Armenia. Of course, some Western ideals that they bring in regarding good governance, transparency in government, information, can be used to better our government and society. We need to have bigger programs encouraging return to Armenia, more incentives.

I think one key thing is creating jobs in Armenia. By creating jobs we can encourage many of the migrant workers in Russia to return. This calls for large investments, building new factories, and so on.

[KanadaHye]

Re: The Dangers of the Liberal Mind in Armenia

Wow, have I just woken up in the Middle Ages?

Lesson to be learned obviously is that women shouldn't go on dates with people they don't trust or know very,very well. It follows that they shouldn't wear "provocative" clothing otherwise they're "asking for it".
Maybe women should only go on dates when they're chaperoned and if they go in public they should wear something modest to protect them, perhaps head to toe clothes and some type of face mask?

Hrai, this doesn't just apply to women but men too. There are a lot of crazy people in the world from both genders. Date rape drugs aren't just used for rape.

Dr Makhorn's "study" is so small to be worthless. Many rape victims do not report the crime, I would imagine that rape victims who become pregnant would be very unwilling to say so.

And you know this because there are guys in locker rooms who tell you they raped someone? Sorry my feminist propaganda eating friend, if rape victims don't report crimes it's probably because they were either too drunk to remember or they were high. Although, nowadays, there are so many recreational drugs that can be put into your drink, you should be even THAT MUCH MORE weary of who you trust.

This discussion is about the liberal mind and the liberal mind thinks that he/she can do anything without consequences because he/she is protected by laws.

The masses have to be kept "happy", if hundreds of thousands of Diasporan Armenian youth will visit Armenia because of the nightlife, then I will support the expanding of the nightlife scene in Armenia. If we can attract them to visit, invest, and move back to Armenia by those means, than be it. They should feel themselves at home, and yes, people will say then we will lose our true "culture", but wake up, in modern day Armenia, the current culture is more islamic/turkish than Armenian. We have to turn assimilation around, and use the tactics the West is using. By being stubbornly "traditionalist", we won't return 80% of the Armenian population back to Armenia, nor will we be able to let them at least feel Armenian. There is only one solution to this, and it is by means of a "soft" approach.

The Armenian youth in the Diaspora can hardly survive with mommy and daddy paying for everything, do you really think they would move out of their comfort zone? We've got to be the only culture with 30-somethings who are happy living at home and have zero interest in "growing up" and "roughing" it through marriage.

[londontsi]

Re: The Dangers of the Liberal Mind in Armenia

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-263266-turkish-engineers-respond-to-call-to-return-home-from-west.html

xxxxx engineers respond to call to return home from West

xxxxx Aerospace Industries (xxx) has introduced a new project, titled the “Reverse Brain Drain Project,” in which it aims to bring distinguished xxxxx engineers from Western countries to xxxxx to participate in the production of domestic technology.

As part of this project, xxx announced on its website that it is looking for highly qualified xxxxx engineers who have previously undertaken important roles in the aviation sector. In the period of one month, more than 100 applicants contacted xxx through its website. Most of the applications were submitted by xxxxx engineers who reside in Germany, the UK, Canada and France. xxx says it is still accepting applications and has been in touch with 20 suitable applicants so far.....


Is there a lesson we can learn and expand on.

[Tigranakert]

Re: The Dangers of the Liberal Mind in Armenia

This is a difficult subject. Our ultimate goal is, what kind of society / mindset is the best for the well-being of the Republic of Armenia? It is not easy to say "liberal" means this, and that, and "traditional" is exactly this or that. Although I am not a supporter of the words "traditional, modern, etc", as it is often misused, I will use it to make my point.

There are a lot of things currently that are too "traditional" or "backward" in Armenian society, which actually does more harm than good. There are also things that are too "liberal" (even more liberal than in most European countries), that harm our country aswell.

For example, I think the current view of a girl and a boy, friend and friendship and relationships is too backward in Armenia, which does our country more harm than good. It is more Turkic/Islamic than Armenian. Millions of Armenians (especially Diasporan girls) around the world have no connection to modern day Armenia, because of this. I think we have to find a equilibria between being "traditionalist" and "liberal". Concerning the birth rate, being "traditional" will bring no benifits, as we have seen the past years, this just does not work on Armenians. It's just too naive too believe that the masses will unite and say, we are Armenians, let's unite, work together, have more children, etc. This only works during a dictatorship in wartime.

The masses have to be kept "happy", if hundreds of thousands of Diasporan Armenian youth will visit Armenia because of the nightlife, then I will support the expanding of the nightlife scene in Armenia. If we can attract them to visit, invest, and move back to Armenia by those means, than be it. They should feel themselves at home, and yes, people will say then we will lose our true "culture", but wake up, in modern day Armenia, the current culture is more islamic/turkish than Armenian. We have to turn assimilation around, and use the tactics the West is using. By being stubbornly "traditionalist", we won't return 80% of the Armenian population back to Armenia, nor will we be able to let them at least feel Armenian. There is only one solution to this, and it is by means of a "soft" approach.

In general, the masses are not important. We want them to live in Armenia, work in Armenia, pay tax in Armenia, invest in Armenia and enjoy Armenia. It is better for the masses to be busy with the things they like, than be politically active, as 99% of the time the masses are politically destructive when politically active.

What is important is that the small "elite", the people in power, are "traditionalist" and "nationalist". What is important is that this small "elite" is organised and has a long-term vision.

Furthermore, there is no point in speaking about multiculturalism in Armenia, as this will not happen now, nor in the near future.

I think this is one of the biggest mistakes of (nationalistic) Armenians. They want the masses to be politically active, to be nationalist, to think of their country 24/7, to know all the names of Armenian freedom fighters, to have a big family, to have a lot of children with Armenian names, to go to Church, etc. Wake up, this just doesn't work. Let the masses be the masses, it is better to attract the 80% of the Armenian population in the world by means which actually do attract the masses, than waste your time on a defect ideology.

All the time and energy of the small group of really self-respecting educated Armenians should be spent into being in power in the Republic of Armenia and mainting this power.

[londontsi]

Re: The Dangers of the Liberal Mind in Armenia

Americans, to their dismay, say "man you Armenians are a close net group"......everyday I see more Armenian merchants popping out stores in cities that there were no Armenians cleaning the place out and beautifying the streets. Churches, schools, concerts, BMW hot rods you can't get away from them Armenians, I tried.

Do you think this will secure longevity of Armenian communities in countries where assimilation is a real challenge.


Was that the problem with previous waves of immigration that assimilated into their host countries?
Have we cracked it now?

[hrai]

Re: The Dangers of the Liberal Mind in Armenia

I wonder what percentage of girls get pregnant from being raped. I'm certain the teen pregnancy statistics aren't from rape. In cases of date rape, you shouldn't put your trust in someone you don't know well enough. There is a statistic that claims 1 in 7 college girls are raped in America (land of the free). Protecting yourself is your responsibility.

1979 Dr Sandra Mahkorn, a professional rape counselor, studied 37 women who had become pregnant through rape. (This was apparently all she could find. Pregnancy from rape is, in fact, extremely rare. The small numbers make the study less statistically significant. But we are certainly not going to hope for more rape victims just so we can get more reliable studies!) Of the 37, 4 did not complete the study. Of the remainder, 28 chose to continue their pregnancies, and 5 chose abortion. So of real pregnant rape victims, only 15% chose abortion.


Poor parenting combined with a liberal society is the cause of most unexpected pregnancies.

Wow, have I just woken up in the Middle Ages?

Lesson to be learned obviously is that women shouldn't go on dates with people they don't trust or know very,very well. It follows that they shouldn't wear "provocative" clothing otherwise they're "asking for it".
Maybe women should only go on dates when they're chaperoned and if they go in public they should wear something modest to protect them, perhaps head to toe clothes and some type of face mask?

Rather than look at dealing with the results of rape maybe a deterrent to the attack should be considered. Castration, preferably physical rather than chemical. (I'm in the Middle Ages, remember).

Dr Makhorn's "study" is so small to be worthless. Many rape victims do not report the crime, I would imagine that rape victims who become pregnant would be very unwilling to say so.

[KanadaHye]

Re: The Dangers of the Liberal Mind in Armenia

Well I have to ask with you to be sure. Just above you said woman is responsible for getting date raped.

So here is the problem.

1. You don't think a woman is responsible for pregnancy due to rape.
2. You think banning abortions makes people responsible for their actions.

You can't say both of those two together. Well, I'll rephrase since you already said them. It doesn't make any sense to say those two together .

So you have to acknowledge that in SOME cases abortion is a valid solution.

The only time it's a necessary solution is if it's life threatening to the mother. Not being responsible means that the woman shouldn't have to bear the burden of raising a child that she didn't choose to bring into the world. If she chooses to keep the child then that's her choice but obviously most often it would be put up for adoption or placed in an orphanage. Abortion is just the low cost, high risk solution.

You don't think children trying to raise children (which will often limit education, earning power, etc.) will lead to a negative cycle? Those kids are likely going to be more responsible than their mothers? You think teens are blameworthy enough to force that kind "punishment" on them? Who in that situation benefits in the situation? The mother? Father? Child? Society? Who?

Hrant Dink was raised in an orphanage. Responsibility is learned from society. My mother was engaged at 15 and married with child at 19. Did she go to college/university? Nope. Did she get to travel the world with her friends? Nope. With 2 kids, she picked up and migrated to another country, learned the language and gave her kids a better life. What we have in the west is adults with all the privileges but who still haven't outgrown childhood.

[retro]

Re: The Dangers of the Liberal Mind in Armenia

How is that taking people's freedoms away? Couples should make better decisions and more careful decisions, that what is emphasised. Pregnancies as a result of rape is very rare in Armenia, I emphasise very rare, Armenia does not have the same perverted society as in some countries in the West thank God. In fact, abortions in Armenia today are quite common, and what's more troubling is the prevalence of select abortion based on the child's gender. It's a recipe for demographic disaster and we must prevent it. I'm not very idealogical, more I'm proposing something that will tackle a grave threat to Armenian society. Why should the Turks around us have 2, 3 times more children than us? The growth rate in Azerbaijan, Turkey are very troubling and if we don't get on top of it, the future looks very grim.

Artsakh has done some incentive programs, but still their demographics isn't that good either. Many people migrate out of Karabakh to Yerevan and Yerevancis to Moskva.

We don't have a luxury of having a multicultural, liberal society, we just don't. What we need is a strong society, patriotic and united, or else if we give in to some of those Western ideals, we will be swallowed up by the Turks by no time, either directly or within (like in Europe).

This is mere hyperbole and you are merely scaremongering. The solution to Armenia's problems certainly isn't for Armenians to become insular, reactionary or emulate the Turks. That crowd are massively underresourced in terms of social investment and the Islamic is facing a demographic crisis in the future.

[Siggie]

Re: The Dangers of the Liberal Mind in Armenia

You don't think children trying to raise children (which will often limit education, earning power, etc.) will lead to a negative cycle? Those kids are likely going to be more responsible than their mothers? You think teens are blameworthy enough to force that kind "punishment" on them? Who in that situation benefits in the situation? The mother? Father? Child? Society? Who?

[Mos]

Re: The Dangers of the Liberal Mind in Armenia

Right because Armenia doesn't have enough orphans. Great idea. Take away people's freedoms.

I'm noticing this is a theme with all of your improvement suggestions. Women aren't making good decisions, so we should take the decision from them was another of your suggestions right? Do you have any ideas that don't involve encroaching on people's liberties? Won't this kind of legislation discourage the diaspora Armenians from repatriating? I know it would discourage me from doing so. Why would I relocate to a country that significantly limits my freedom relative to where I am now? I know there are lots of reasons to move, but my point is that these kinds of things would be significant negatives to weigh against those positives. You're very ideological and not very pragmatic.

The incentives are a better idea. Didn't Artsakh do something similar to stimulate the birth rate? With the mass weddings and housing or what not?

How is that taking people's freedoms away? Couples should make better decisions and more careful decisions, that what is emphasised. Pregnancies as a result of rape is very rare in Armenia, I emphasise very rare, Armenia does not have the same perverted society as in some countries in the West thank God. In fact, abortions in Armenia today are quite common, and what's more troubling is the prevalence of select abortion based on the child's gender. It's a recipe for demographic disaster and we must prevent it. I'm not very idealogical, more I'm proposing something that will tackle a grave threat to Armenian society. Why should the Turks around us have 2, 3 times more children than us? The growth rate in Azerbaijan, Turkey are very troubling and if we don't get on top of it, the future looks very grim.

Artsakh has done some incentive programs, but still their demographics isn't that good either. Many people migrate out of Karabakh to Yerevan and Yerevancis to Moskva.

We don't have a luxury of having a multicultural, liberal society, we just don't. What we need is a strong society, patriotic and united, or else if we give in to some of those Western ideals, we will be swallowed up by the Turks by no time, either directly or within (like in Europe).