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Perhaps it is time that the Armenian government revisited their decision not to have their historians engage in a scholarly discussion with Turkish historians!
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Your news article has nothing to do with rejecting the genocide as truth, all it shows is a delay and possible edit in the law. This statement quoted above has nothing to do with your news article, it's just a gross generalization. And if Turks want to have a scholarly discussion with Armenians about the genocide, perhaps the Turkish government can stop postponing scholarly conferences indefinitely. -
I think first we need to establish that there are said banned books in Armenia. I'm not familiar with any, but I'd appreciate it if you can bring an example to our attention.While critising the Turkish government, why don't you show us an article, a conference, a tv program or a book in Armenia challenging the traditional Armenian claim, that the Armenian government has allowed?
I do know that Ottoman military and historical archives have been open for about a year, and Armenian archives are open to scholars, where Yeftan Turkyilmaz as a Turkish scholar is working with them.Comment
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The author of "Armenia: Secrets of a 'Christian' Terrorist State" is the late Samuel A. Weems, a disbarred attorney and a convicted felon. Interestingly enough, his book is not available anywhere expect one place: the publishing company Turkish Forum. His writing goes something like this:
Convicted felons shouldn't tell people that.Originally posted by Samuel Weems
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Edward Tashji's books are not available by website yet, even Turkish ones. When I travel to Armenia I can report to you if this book can be found anywhere. I have not found any reports, articles, or websites which claim this book is not being sold in Armenia. If you see such an article, please state it. However, most of his promotions have been in the United States, so I have my doubts.
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Justin McCarthy's book is published in Oxford and is available anywhere on the internet, definitely reachable to Armenia. If I recall correctly, this book labels the Armenian genocide as British propaganda. I have read a summary of this proposition.
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Now, I want you to do a favor for me. A very small one.
Find a Turkish website that sells any books by Tamer Akcam, a Turkish citizen of Azeri ancestry.
In fact, Arnold Schwartzenegger officially recognized the Armenian Genocide as governer of California. Find me a Turkish theatre or movie store that sells his movies.
Then, watch the movie "Silent Wall", a documentary on censorship.Comment
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I think Kharpert asked that question based on such reports:
Turkish group protests Schwarzenegger over Armenian genocide statement
Tuesday, April 26, 2005
A Turkish group uniting hundreds of businesses and organizations demanded Tuesday that Arnold Schwarzenegger's movies be banned from Turkish television to protest the California governor's use of the term genocide to describe the massacre of Armenians by Turks during World War I.
Schwarzenegger, a former actor best known for his role in "The Terminator," declared April 24 a "Day of Remembrance of the Armenian Genocide." California has one of the largest populations of diaspora Armenians.
Other California governors have issued annual proclamations referring to the killings as a genocide, but last week Schwarzenegger also signed legislation to permanently mark the day.
An umbrella organization grouping some 300 Ankara-based associations, unions and businesses and led by the Ankara Chamber of Commerce said it launched a petition to have the governor's films banned in Turkey.
"We condemn and protest movie star Arnold Schwarzenegger, who declared April 24 a day to commemorate the Armenian genocide and accused Turks of genocide by acting under the influence of the Armenian lobby, and without researching historical truths," read a statement from Sinan Aygun, head of Ankara Chamber of Commerce.
"We don't want his films shown in Turkey," said the statement.
Armenia says up to 1.5 million Armenians died or were killed as part of a genocidal campaign to force them out of eastern Turkey. Turkey acknowledges that large numbers of Armenians died, but says the overall figure is inflated and that the deaths occurred in civil unrest during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
Margita Thompson, Schwarzenegger's spokeswoman, said the governor's proclamation speaks for itself. The boycott of his movies was a freedom of expression and his office was not going to comment on it, she said.
Ergun Kirlikovali, spokesman for the American Turkish Association of Southern California, said that while prior governors have signed the same resolution — there is a new effort among Turks to express their side of the story.
"Turks everywhere are drawing the line," said Kirlikovali. "Turkish silence on this has been misinterpreted as Turkish guilt. We're saying we have our story to tell, please listen to us."
Kirlikovali said the Turkish people are particularly upset with Schwarzenegger, whom they believed was "one of our guys," because of his Austrian ancestry.
"He turned around and stabbed us in the back," Kirlikovali said.
California state Sen. Chuck Poochigian, R-Fresno, author of the legislation permanently marking the day of remembrance, said the Turkish government continues to ignore the incident.
"With growing attempts to revise the historical record of this period and denial of truth by the Turkish government, it's vitally important that false depictions of the tragedies of the genocide are rejected," he said in a statement.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...n055030D88.DTLComment
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He most probably also read about Turkey wanting to burn Orhan Pamuk's books:Originally posted by Bugra
Turkish politicians called for Pamuk's books to be burned
During the same general timeframe, the internationally renowned writer Orhan Pamuk became victim of a witch-hunt by media outlets and politicians. After he remarked during an interview about his book Snow that “in Turkey, one million Armenians and 30,000 Kurds were killed” during World War I, regional politicians called for his books to be burned. Pamuk was accused of “insulting the state,” newspapers branded him a “traitor” and he could not appear in public due to numerous death threats.
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Or maybe he read this:
TURKISH LAWYER ACKNOWLEDGING ARMENIAN GENOCIDE CAN BE IMPRISONED
06.06.2005 04:35
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Turkish citizen and lawyer Madani Ayhan, Kurd in origin, was called to criminal responsibility for stating that Turks implemented a hostile policy towards the Armenians what resulted in the Armenian Genocide in 1915, 525 Azeri newspaper reports. He is the first to be accused of “propaganda” of the Armenian Genocide that is why the event caused serious resonance in Turkey. The majority of the Turkish population consider Ayhan’s opinion to be “treason against Turkey and the whole Turk world.” However there are also supporters. To remind, not long ago well-known Turkish writer Ohran Pamuk confirmed the fact of the Armenian Genocide arousing public discontent by that. However he was not called to account. Turkish media report that Ayhan is accused in accord with Article 312 of the Turkish Criminal Code, which calls for imprisonment of individuals, who do deeds conflicting with the interests and principles of the state. The prosecutor claims three years of imprisonment for Ayhan, who also made statements against the integrity of Turkey and supported the idea of formation of Kurdish State. To note, M. Ayhan made a statement on the Armenian Genocide during a formal event last November while the criminal case was initiated this February. In his speech he called himself a citizen of Kurdistan. “I am speaking on behalf of the Kurdish people and going to defend Kurds’ right of formation a separate state”, he stressed. The representatives of the Turkish Office of Prosecutor General stated that words of the kind are enough for initiating a criminal case. According to Turkish media, besides calling himself a citizen of Kurdistan Ayhan also acknowledges the Armenian Genocide and says that the Armenian people, who struggled for Unification and Prosperity befell carnages in Ottoman Turkey in 1915.” “I bow down before the beautiful and oppressed Armenian people and join them in their grief”, Ayhan said. Today the Turkish citizen, who has become an enemy for Turkey, will stand trial. He can be sentenced to three years of imprisonment.
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My point is, why are you surprised by his question? Is he too far from the truth? I don't think so.Comment
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Or maybe he read about Dogan Aqhanla, a Turkish author, who was exiled from his own country for not denying the Armenian genocide and spent 2 years in Istanbul's prison as a political prisoner with his wife and newborn child.
Rewriting History: Turkish author works to undo his country’s position on genocide
This week Armenian writers hosted a Turkish author and human rights activist, Dogan Aqhanla, who was exiled from his own country for not denying the Armenian genocide.
“I was condemned by the Turkish authorities for condemning and recognizing the genocide. I spent the years of 1985-1987 in Istanbul’s jail as a political prisoner together with my wife and newborn child,” says Aqhanla.
Aqhanla: “We can not live in peace with our criminal past”
He is one of a few intellectuals of his time who doesn’t turn a blind eye to the historical facts and speaks openly about it, putting to shame the Turkish intelligentsia.
Aqhanla says: “Turkey’s whole intelligentsia is now in shame for distorting the historical reality and not recognizing the Armenian Genocide. There is only one mention about the genocide in modern Turkish literature and the author is Nazim Hikmet. I should say that recently an opera piece was produced on the basis of that work, but the part (about genocide) was withdrawn.”
According to the Turkish writer, his country’s policy of negating and distorting the facts turns Turkey into a criminal state today. One cannot say that the generations born after the Second World War are personally responsible, however the same generations must be ready to answer the question of how they view the crimes committed by their ancestors.
“I am here today to declare that I assume historical responsibility. Recognition for me is not only a moral but also political and public matter, because as German Bernhard Schlink says: “The one who lives in peace with the criminal also becomes responsible,” he says.
In May 1998, Aqhanla lost his Turkish citizenship because of his political views and his position on the Genocide. Since 2001 he has been a citizen of Germany and lives in Cologne and from time to time contributes to a Turkish-language newspaper. In 1998-99, Istanbul’s Belge Publishing House published the writer’s “Seas that Disappeared” trilogy in Turkish. His latest book “The Judges of the Doomsday” touches upon the subject of the genocide committed against Armenians.
His sixth “Dialogue, Alienation and Memory” book will be published in Turkey in May. The ending of the book takes place in Tsitsernakaberd (the Genocide Monument in Yerevan).
He writes: “If I hadn’t come to Germany, most probably I would not become a writer and would not write a book that ends in Yerevan, near the monument to the memory of the Genocide victims. And I wouldn’t have found the courage and strength to stand here today in front of Mount Ararat and speak.
“I thank you from the bottom of my heart for allowing me to participate in the commemoration of the Genocide victims on the 90th anniversary. I am grateful to you also for allowing me, a man representing a society that committed crimes, to remember and pay homage to the memory of every victim and to ponder about the disgrace and dishonor of my nation.”
Aqhanla says that his struggle is against the policy of negation assumed by Turkey and for the recognition of the genocide committed against Armenians. He wants to feel again that the country where he was born is his country.
Aqhanla works for an organization that has set out to alter the mentality of the rising generation of Turks in Germany.
“Last year we took a group of young German-based Turks to the street in Berlin where Soghomon Tehlerian killed Taleat pasha. We worked with them for three days. There were also five young people from Turkey in the group. In that very street those who came from Turkey started to debate, saying that there was no such thing. But the German-Turks countered, saying that the whole world knows about it,” Aqhanla says.
In the end, two of the five young people changed their position upon return to Turkey. One of them organized a collection of signatures to condemn the Armenian genocide. The other changed the topic of his doctoral thesis, choosing the 1915 Armenian Genocide. The Turkish writer considers this to be their achievement.
“We took the young people to the German archives, which are open to everyone. We studied Armenian case N183 that indisputably presents Germany’s real participation in the genocide on the state level. I also feel ashamed for Germany, which once took part in the crime and hasn’t admitted and condemned it to date,” he says.
Aqhanla says he dreams of a day when Turkey will consider “recognition” to be the beginning of the re-evaluation of its past before 2015. And he dreams of one and a half million pomegranate trees to be planted in Turkey in memory of each victim.
“I dream that every Armenian who lost his or her ancestor during the years of the genocide will return and find a secure place in the country that is called Turkey today. I hope that my dreams will come true. If it is fulfilled, and that must be fulfilled, at that time I will apply for Turkish citizenship and will say: I am yours. And I am here again.”
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I don't hate Turkey or Turks. I'm not gonna deny it, I don't like your country because of the obvious reasons, but don't hate your people. Honestly, I don't blame you guys for being so ignorant about the genocide. Probably if I grew up as a turk in your country, I would also be as ignorant and in the dark about the genocide as you are. It's not your fault, really. Your government is responsible for it. It doesn't want to acknowledge the genocide because it is scared of the consequences; because it has to pay. You people just learn what they teach you at school and your nationalistic feelings keep you from looking elsewhere to find the truth. Listening what we've been saying for ages. Listening what our people went through. You're looking for excuses all the time, the Russian excuse, Turkey has nothing to do with Ottoman empire, there weren't even 1.5 million Armenians in Ottoman empire, and others. And recently, you're starting to blame it on the Diaspora. If the genocide never happened, there wouldn't be 5 million Armenians living abroad. The majority of the diaspora is the result of the genocide. I don't know, I got nothing against you or any other Turk. I'm trying my best to help you guys understand but I'm starting to think it will never happen. You are just determined to deny it no matter what. So unfortunately, I don't see future friendships between Turks and Armenians or our countries. Sad, but what can we do? I'll never forget what my own family went through, and you, well I guess you'll never believe me or anyone else for that matter. So no point in arguing further.Originally posted by BugraComment
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Originally posted by Kemel
It’s like we’re playing with words here.
Thankfully there are many intelligent Turks today who don’t deny the genocide.
What is the definition of the term “genocide” anyway?
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
The critical element is the presence of an "intent to destroy", which can be either "in whole or in part", groups defined in terms of nationality, ethnicity, race or religion. So tell me, which part of the definition contradicts what happened to Armenians in 1915? The reason for not wanting to use the term genocide is consequences, monetary to be exact.
Here is why. Armenians were being harassed throughout the 1890s up to 1915. About 300,000 Armenians were massacred throughout those years. Some Armenians helped Russians? I bet they did, but can you blame them? Some Armenians stood up for themselves? I bet they did. Some Armenians took revenge from the Turks by killing them? I bet they did. See, I’m not denying this myself. Do I think Armenians are perfect? No. No nation is. Do I think Armenians are capable of killing today? Yes. Do I think they need to be blamed for the genocide? No. Nothing can justify what happened to them during those years.Originally posted by Kemel
Neither do the Germans living in Germany today. We can’t change history, but we can accept it and try to make up for it, just like Germans did to Jews. The relationship between those two nations today is rather friendly and peaceful even though the number of them killed was way more that Armenians and was more recent. But Armenia and Turkey have a closed border. There is this hatred growing among our people, from both sides. Not only is this not going away, but it’s getting uglier and uglier every year. As I said, you can’t change history, but you can make up for it.Originally posted by kemel
Originally posted by Bugra
Bugra, many Turkish soldiers helped Armenians during the genocide. Our eyewitnesses spoke about how Turkish soldiers would try to give water to Armenians during the death marches and would be shot on the spot by another officer. We didicated a thread to them.
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