Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[Hovik]

Hovik,

Yes, I translated the initial part of an article, and included also the relevant Turkish original, in case other Turkish-speaking members want to check the accuracy of my translation. I also read, and to the best of my knowledge, understood the forum rules which you posted.

Vogel,
Your translation was good and your contribution was appreciated.

That part, which I attempted to translate, was the 'supposed' comments of an 100+ years old Armenian lady who currently lives in Lebanon. Without making further comments, she claimed that she was treated nicely and protected by Ottoman soldiers during her forced march to Syria.

I later added my personal opinion that the Turkish magazine which published the article does not seem to be credible or trustworthy. If you request more details why, I can gladly provide it for you.

Although it doesn't affect the status of the deleted thread I am interested in discussing with you why you believe the Turkish source is not credible. Please share this...

Clearly, I cannot give you 100% proof that I have no hidden, mischieveous purpose to support denialism. Apart from the fact that I am Turkish, I did not write or post anything which was in any way denialist. On the contrary, I pointed out to the possible hidden agenda of the article which I partially translated. My honest belief is that these articles are also necessary, if not desirable, in order to display the diversity of opinion among Turks.

A diversity of opinion is needed not only among Turks but Armenians as well. Obviously, because of the collective Armenian role in the Genocide experience we have far more 'evil Turk' stories than we have 'good Turk' stories. This is natural since even a considerable amount of Ottoman Turkish society supported what the Ottoman Government was doing to Armenians. However, there were yet many other Turks who opposed it, and helped to try to save Armenians. To me, these Turks are real heros, and everyone should know more about them. These heros should be put on a pedestal and revered as contributors to the survival of our nation! That is the reason I started the thread: FORGOTTEN HEROS

Therefore, I have difficulty in understanding the purpose of deleting the entire thread, especially if it contains labor and effort of serious forum members. Especially doing translations is a difficult thing, and translating sensitive issues and sentences requires even more effort.

Vogel, again, I understand your point, but the thread was getting out of control. As a matter of fact at the time the forum was getting out of control so there were many threads deleted and several members banned. You were not singled out, I assure you.

Now, lets continue what we were talking about... uncredible Turkish media... with regard to the article you posted.

[Vogelgrippe]

A diversity of opinion is needed not only among Turks but Armenians as well. Obviously, because of the collective Armenian role in the Genocide experience we have far more 'evil Turk' stories than we have 'good Turk' stories. This is natural since even a considerable amount of Ottoman Turkish society supported what the Ottoman Government was doing to Armenians. However, there were yet many other Turks who opposed it, and helped to try to save Armenians. To me, these Turks are real heros, and everyone should know more about them. These heros should be put on a pedestal and revered as contributors to the survival of our nation! That is the reason I started the thread: FORGOTTEN HEROS

Hovik, I appreciate your kind approach on this matter. I would like to comment also about this issue later on.

Although it doesn't affect the status of the deleted thread I am interested in discussing with you why you believe the Turkish source is not credible. Please share this...

This ‘Aksiyon (Action) magazine is associated with, and probably owned by, the imam-businessman-politician-clown Fettullah Gulen. If you speak some Turkish, you will realize that the title ‘Hocaefendi! (master hodja) does not exist in Turkey since the foundation of the Republic. Given Aksiyon’s insistence on calling Mr. Gulen ‘Hocaefendi’, you can guess how ‘progressive’, ‘modern’, and ‘democratic’ these minds are. They are good at inventing bogus religious titles however.

Strongly Ottomanist in their policies, their narrow logic is simple: Ottoman Empire=good, Republic of Turkey=bad. Regarding the Armenians, of course they are denialist, because the good old Ottoman Empire wouldn’t do such an evil thing! Therefore the testimony of the 105 year old Armenian lady who was ‘protected and taken care of’ during her forced march to Syria! How could anything bad, let alone a genocide, happen under the perfectly functioning ‘millet’ system! That’s why I commented, in the thread you deleted, that I would be very proud if I could somehow believe in this story they are selling, but I cannot.

FYI, these are the same people who cry for democracy & human rights when few hundred militant-style-turban-wearing girls cannot attend university because of the headscarf ban at Turkish universities. However, when hundreds of thousand of young girls are forced to stay home or work by their parents instead of attending high schools and universities, these gentlemen are dead silent. They are the masters (‘efendi’) of hypocricies, but not of hodjas, or anything else...

[TurQ]

Hitite's translation was better. There were some mistranslations by Vogel.
The article does not say they were treated nicely. It says it was a hard journey and the convoys were guarded by soldiers from attacks(the bandits).
This was not a unique case for those event.In Erzurum the convoys of Armenians stopped twice because there were attacks and the soldiers couldnt guard the Armenians. THis does not mean that they did not suffer.
The whole point of the article is that The Armenians of Hatay did return after 1915, actually returned in 1916.

And in 19139 they have returned back again, and the article says Turks did not do anything wrong(says mrs Kesabiyan), the French actually wanted them to leave Hatay. I think Vogel misunderstood that part.

The very same article does contain views that genocide did actually happened and Turkey should recognize it. It also included a brief interview with several Armenian leaders in Beyrut, including the Tashnak party representative.

About the religous people, Vogel has stereotypes. The person that he accuses of being denialist, actually built very good relationships with Armenian and Greek community.

Zaman (which belongs to same media group) published numerous articles or commentaries that support Armenian genocide thesis. Ethen Mahcupyan and Elif Shafak autoring regular commentaries in Zaman, which I believe disproves Vogel's views.

Vogel,
Your translation was good and your contribution was appreciated.



Although it doesn't affect the status of the deleted thread I am interested in discussing with you why you believe the Turkish source is not credible. Please share this...



A diversity of opinion is needed not only among Turks but Armenians as well. Obviously, because of the collective Armenian role in the Genocide experience we have far more 'evil Turk' stories than we have 'good Turk' stories. This is natural since even a considerable amount of Ottoman Turkish society supported what the Ottoman Government was doing to Armenians. However, there were yet many other Turks who opposed it, and helped to try to save Armenians. To me, these Turks are real heros, and everyone should know more about them. These heros should be put on a pedestal and revered as contributors to the survival of our nation! That is the reason I started the thread: FORGOTTEN HEROS



Vogel, again, I understand your point, but the thread was getting out of control. As a matter of fact at the time the forum was getting out of control so there were many threads deleted and several members banned. You were not singled out, I assure you.

Now, lets continue what we were talking about... uncredible Turkish media... with regard to the article you posted.

[TurQ]

Unfortunetly I couldnt find the english translation for this.

There are lots of parents of such girls who just simply leave everything behind move to another country just to help their daughter to get a university education.
I think it is equally disturbing both being silent for the girls who are forced to stay at home and being happy for those girls who are forced out of their campuses.

Elif Shafak had written an article relating the father of such girl who can only get a university education abroad. Her father left his everything and became a taxi driver in New York to care of his daughter and support her university education in US.

http://www.zaman.com.tr/?bl=turkuaz&alt=yazarlar&trh=20051213&hn=171173

I will try to find the english version for this article.

[vogelgrippe]
FYI, these are the same people who cry for democracy & human rights when few hundred militant-style-turban-wearing girls cannot attend university because of the headscarf ban at Turkish universities. However, when hundreds of thousand of young girls are forced to stay home or work by their parents instead of attending high schools and universities, these gentlemen are dead silent. They are the masters (‘efendi’) of hypocricies, but not of hodjas, or anything else...[/QUOTE]

[Vogelgrippe]

Hitite's translation was better. There were some mistranslations by Vogel.

TurQ,

As far as I remember from the contents of the deleted thread, Hitite's was a summary, mine was a partial translation. I believe my translation was accurate, it was only a partial translation comprising only the initial two paragraphs of the article. I explicitly stated that I only translated the initial two paragraphs.

Furthermore, given that 1)the moderator deleted the thread containing the translation 2) you did not come up with a better translation of the section which I attempted to translate, I don't understand why you are so critical of something for which you don't offer a better alternative.

There are lots of parents of such girls who just simply leave everything behind move to another country just to help their daughter to get a university education.

I agree with you that also girls who cannot attend Turkish universities because of headscarf ban have a tragedy. Ideally, they should have a right to study wherever they want, with headscarf, mini skirt, or Afghani burqa. The only question is whether the current political climate is ripe for such a polarization, especially when the turban is soooo politicized.

I only wanted to point out that an equal tragedy, the tragedy of girls who are forced to sit home, or work, instead of being allowed to pursue their education. Probably you will also admit, that our press does not cover their tragedy as much as the tragedy of the headscarf ban victims. Why, because taking up their cause is monopolized by the neo-Ottomanists and Islamists, who narrow down Turkey's education problems to one and single issue: headscarf

[TurQ]

I didnt want to post my own translation, because I thought it would be misleading some people could have thought the translation be biased thats why I have posted in Turkish(first) and asked our Armenian friends to translate it.

As far as the Turkish press concerned, the numbers tell their stry very well. In a 70 million country the total papers sold in TUrkey is no more than 4 million I believe, may be less than that.
I think the problem should first be solved among the citizens. My mom fiercy opposes the headscarf ban. But she would probably have a heart attack or something, or commit suicide if I marry with a girl who wears headscarf.
Certain political movements tried to abuse this for their gain(both from left and right).
In general it is part of the problematic of defining the identity.

There were two inaccuracies in that article, the first one was the article said there are 100,000 Armeinians in Lobenon, in reality it is 300,000.
The second is that by embarking from the story of Mrs Kesabiyan, the autor comments that "the allegations of Armenians are false". Just one experience or Hatay experience in general does not mean the events were uniform. And it is the same
fallacy that Haput or Zeytun experience was the same experience in Konya, or was uniform throughout Anatolia.

Anyways my whole point in posting that artile was, Maral said no Armenians left in Anatolia after 1915.

TurQ,
As far as I remember from the contents of the deleted thread, Hitite's was a summary, mine was a partial translation. I believe my translation was accurate, it was only a partial translation comprising only the initial two paragraphs of the article. I explicitly stated that I only translated the initial two paragraphs.

Furthermore, given that 1)the moderator deleted the thread containing the translation 2) you did not come up with a better translation of the section which I attempted to translate, I don't understand why you are so critical of something for which you don't offer a better alternative.



I agree with you that also girls who cannot attend Turkish universities because of headscarf ban have a tragedy. Ideally, they should have a right to study wherever they want, with headscarf, mini skirt, or Afghani burqa. The only question is whether the current political climate is ripe for such a polarization, especially when the turban is soooo politicized.

I only wanted to point out that an equal tragedy, the tragedy of girls who are forced to sit home, or work, instead of being allowed to pursue their education. Probably you will also admit, that our press does not cover their tragedy as much as the tragedy of the headscarf ban victims. Why, because taking up their cause is monopolized by the neo-Ottomanists and Islamists, who narrow down Turkey's education problems to one and single issue: headscarf

[Tongue]

I am a businessman working in France and originally I am an Armenian .
As far as I know that there was a genocide in ottoman empire. Last year I have gone to Turkey to see my grand parents.. My grand mother told me that "The ottoman government never did massacres it is just arguments of societies made by big countries. Ottomans were so strong if Ottomans want us to annihilate Armenians there wouldnt be any Armenians to support the Genocide idea." And she continued..."this is just the lies of big countries not to develop Turkey and not to make rich Armenia." I was shocked about her speech. She never told us anything about Genocide in her life and now I understand that she feels to make clarify something once in her life.

Then I return to France again and I get in touch with the politicians I know in parliament. When I was asking to accept the Genocide in French Parliament in 2001 they accepted and supported us but now they are refusing it. I am sure that this is a trap of Russia, France, United States, United Kingdom.

You are a professional liar.

[Gavur]

The truth as always is somewhere in the midst of it all

If I was still living in Turkey most likely I would be a denier too like your grandmama

Hopefully were helping to change that Instutization of denial that has been alive and well in Turkey until now.

So what if Europe profits in this process
The beast must be fed right?
Turkey can and will admit to genocide of our familys ,they are just trying to figure out how .

[Kharpert]

They are washing our brains from the primary school.

It may surprise you to know that the only primary schools that deny the Armenian Genocide as a matter of policy are Turkish (and probably Azeri) primary schools.

[imported_Hellektor]

You fool no one

I am a businessman working in France and originally I am an Armenian .
As far as I know that there was a genocide in ottoman empire. Last year I have gone to Turkey to see my grand parents.. My grand mother told me that "The ottoman government never did massacres it is just arguments of societies made by big countries. Ottomans were so strong if Ottomans want us to annihilate Armenians there wouldnt be any Armenians to support the Genocide idea." And she continued..."this is just the lies of big countries not to develop Turkey and not to make rich Armenia." I was shocked about her speech. She never told us anything about Genocide in her life and now I understand that she feels to make clarify something once in her life.

Then I return to France again and I get in touch with the politicians I know in parliament. When I was asking to accept the Genocide in French Parliament in 2001 they accepted and supported us but now they are refusing it. I am sure that this is a trap of Russia, France, United States, United Kingdom.

If you are an Armenian then I am a Jupiterian.
No Armenian will choose that flag drenched in our blood, with Lucifer's symbol in the middle as their avatar. (Since the avatar was changed when I posted, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.)

You have never read a single book about the genocide so, before you repeat the old Turkish denial garbage here, I suggest you read the works of Lepsius, Toynbee and Bryce, Morgenthau, Armin Wegner, Nansen, Vahagn Dadrian, Richard Hovanessian, Peter Balakian, etc.

I have spent days to write this rebuttal of McFarty which will answer all your questions.

Here is an account of Mohammad Ali Jamalzadeh, a renowned Persian writer that will dissipate any doubts about what happened.
He is neither a European, nor a Christian, Armenian or a Jew.