Hello I am new here

[Joseph]

Ladies and gents,

I will not ask you to apologize to one another but please simmer down and stop insulting one another. Let's try to keep things cordial respond a little more dispassionately because quite honestly, everyone; lal, bell, crusader, gavur are all making good points and this thread is now very interesting.

[Joseph]

BTW,

There have been some great comments and arguments regarding the role of religion, cultural imperatives/differences between Turks and Armenians, moral relativism.

[imported_crusader1492]

Ladies and gents,

I will not ask you to apologize to one another but please simmer down and stop insulting one another. Let's try to keep things cordial respond a little more dispassionately because quite honestly, everyone; lal, bell, crusader, gavur are all making good points and this thread is now very interesting.

Thanks for cooling things down Joseph. I don't know if I could handel Bell's scorn

[imported_crusader1492]

The quote below is from a recent article discussing the 1990 pogroms in Baku.
The bolded font stood out to me as I have seen this weakness displayed by Armenians (and non-Armenians such as Bell) who tend to forget or minimize the bloody history of Turks and opt to paint Turks on an equal footing as Armenians in the quest for "peace".
Not only is this attitude delusional for Armenians, but it is dangerous as well as we are trying to see a "friend in an enemy", such as Lal who (IMO) demonstrates (albeit on a much more subtle level) the typical attitude of a Turkish national who has no will to take the necessary concrete steps at fostering peace.

...and by "concrete", I mean not just recognition but reparations and restoration of lands as well.

"...dwelling on the massacres of Armenians in Baku in 1990,
it's worth mentioning that not only the Turks, but we, Armenians
also were guilty in then. Our unhealthy desire to see a friend in
an enemy very frequently leads us to dangerous serenity that helps
organizing and implementing massacres of Armenians, and, moreover,
remains unpunished after that. The initiators and the murderers of
the massacres of Armenians in 1990 in Baku are unpunished till now.

Taking into account these facts, we can learn the following lesson
which says that we can establish friendly relations with our Turk
"neighbors," only if we have efficient army and the liberated
territories preserved to us."

Source: http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg217282.html

[bell-the-cat]

The quote below is from a recent article discussing the 1990 pogroms in Baku.
The bolded font stood out to me as I have seen this weakness displayed by Armenians (and non-Armenians such as Bell) who tend to forget or minimize the bloody history of Turks and opt to paint Turks on an equal footing as Armenians in the quest for "peace".
Not only is this attitude delusional for Armenians, but it is dangerous as well as we are trying to see a "friend in an enemy", such as Lal who (IMO) demonstrates (albeit on a much more subtle level) the typical attitude of a Turkish national who has no will to take the necessary concrete steps at fostering peace.

...and by "concrete", I mean not just recognition but reparations and restoration of lands as well.

"...dwelling on the massacres of Armenians in Baku in 1990,
it's worth mentioning that not only the Turks, but we, Armenians
also were guilty in then. Our unhealthy desire to see a friend in
an enemy very frequently leads us to dangerous serenity that helps
organizing and implementing massacres of Armenians, and, moreover,
remains unpunished after that. The initiators and the murderers of
the massacres of Armenians in 1990 in Baku are unpunished till now.

Taking into account these facts, we can learn the following lesson
which says that we can establish friendly relations with our Turk
"neighbors," only if we have efficient army and the liberated
territories preserved to us."

Source: http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg217282.html

What a contemptable insect you are. Buzzing around inside your little jam-jar, thinking it's the whole world.

I take back my scorn. One doesn't waste scorn on a bug.

[lal]

The quote below is from a recent article discussing the 1990 pogroms in Baku.
The bolded font stood out to me as I have seen this weakness displayed by Armenians (and non-Armenians such as Bell) who tend to forget or minimize the bloody history of Turks and opt to paint Turks on an equal footing as Armenians in the quest for "peace".
Not only is this attitude delusional for Armenians, but it is dangerous as well as we are trying to see a "friend in an enemy", such as Lal who (IMO) demonstrates (albeit on a much more subtle level) the typical attitude of a Turkish national who has no will to take the necessary concrete steps at fostering peace.

...and by "concrete", I mean not just recognition but reparations and restoration of lands as well.

"...dwelling on the massacres of Armenians in Baku in 1990,
it's worth mentioning that not only the Turks, but we, Armenians
also were guilty in then. Our unhealthy desire to see a friend in
an enemy very frequently leads us to dangerous serenity that helps
organizing and implementing massacres of Armenians, and, moreover,
remains unpunished after that. The initiators and the murderers of
the massacres of Armenians in 1990 in Baku are unpunished till now.

Taking into account these facts, we can learn the following lesson
which says that we can establish friendly relations with our Turk
"neighbors," only if we have efficient army and the liberated
territories preserved to us."

Source: http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg217282.html

İf your strategy is to go on like today,it can go on like this for ever, for both sides. armenia must have a strong army and strong diaspora international propaganda must go on. Also,more realistic way is to hope Kurds do something in Turkey.


You see, Im not interested this kind of power struggles. We have millions of your counterparts here. They are the ones killing the christians .And believe me ,while you dream to take your lands back by force,they also think ,they can anytime just simply walk in ,and invade your country.they are just waiting a reason to do that.

ı offer a different solution. I say, we must first start to understand what caused the problem. This means ,

1.religion and cultural differences caused the genocide,not racial reasons.this means we are real sisters and brothers divided by religon.
2.as long as religons exist ,like they are today,we have no chance to live together,for ever.
3.since it is very difficult ,to destroy islam and christianity,we must find a way to make islam and christianity come close to each other. Traditions of islam must be tamed.and the best way to do this is alevi way of religon. a christian must be able to pray in a mosque and a muslim must pray in a church. may be than religon can be a good binding tool as it should have been goaled.
4.turkey must very strongly be pushed into eu project. this is the only way to make turks to look at armenian problem more humane and civilised way.if they throw away turkey out of eu for sure, ım afraid this will bring terrible consequınces not only for armenia, but for all the world.
5. if by eu s methods turkish people can learn what real human rights,democracy is, and economicly develop,then armenian-turkish conflict will end.
6. if turkey can reach to that level, you will not need to get lands or money from turkey which is extreme dream. borders will fully open to armenians to work,live,buy lands and invest as aresult of eu politics. armenians and greeks will be welcomed to their ancient lands as first class people. Anatolian people will again get together ,but this time as equal citizens.

these are very possible to happen,but there is great difficulty of solving religon problem.and that ı dont know how can be.

peace

[lal]

I bet you didn't do that 10km of walking for Armenia, or for Armenians.

You did it because you were brave enough to do it and you did it for Turkey, because you did not want the society that murdered Dink to prosper, (and I bet a little of it was for the pleasure of being amongst a lot of people who think the same as you). They were the right reasons to do it.

It should be the same for recognising the Armenian genocide and acknowledging all of the past history of Turkey. Do it for yourself and for Turkish society, because honesty is always better than self-dillusion and the ill-effects a self-deluded society will suffer from.

Don't do it for Armenians, especially not for the sort of Armenians you will encounter online. No matter what you say, they will, in the end, always want more, always doubt your good faith, always insult you.

The sad truth is that key elements of the Armenian diaspora oppose and dislike those who agree 90% with their position far more than those who disagree 100% with it. This is because dealing with someone who agrees 90% with you requires thought and sublety and compromise and perhaps the admittance that you yourself are not 100% correct. It is easy to oppose someone if they are entirely opposed to your position.

I agree.you are intelligent. I want to live in a better country. I want less or no nationalizm. ,ı want less or no religon. ı want to be proud of myself as a human being and proud of everything good and beautiful on earth regardless whoever did it. ı dont want a squeezed life between religon and nation and husband. ı dont want to defend my state whatever they do. ı want a more quality life in where women and men are equal and african and american equal also.thats why ı am defending armenian cause.

am ı a dreamer. maybe. maybe ı am not the correct person for middle east or for this site..


peace

[imported_crusader1492]

İf
4.turkey must very strongly be pushed into eu project. this is the only way to make turks to look at armenian problem more humane and civilised way.if they throw away turkey out of eu for sure, ım afraid this will bring terrible consequınces not only for armenia, but for all the world.

I think you put too much stock in Turkey's power to affect the world. Turkey's petulent behavior is only being tolerated by the west right now. However, Turkey is walking a fine line and if they get out of control (as they are starting to do in Kurdistan), they will be slapped down. Essentially, Turkey can be easily manipulated by the west on many fronts (politically, economically and militarily). For example, how easy would it be to stoke Kurdish nationalism in Diyabakir?

What I'm getting at is Turkey is in no position to make demands, or force their will on the west...and certainly, Turkey is not capable of creating "terrible consequences" for the world (nor for Armenia). Turkey is only capable of creating terrible consequences for people within its own political borders...past and current history is evidence of this.

Also, it is unlikely Turkey will enter the EU (btw, I have no preference on if they enter the union or not - that is the European's business)...simply put, Turks are not wanted as their culture and institutions are undesireable in Europe.
I certainly do not blame Europe for their pragmatic stance...although it would be nice if they took on the next-to-impssible task of civilizing Turkey.

[1.5 million]

Welcom to the forum Lal & Crusader.

[bell-the-cat]

İf your strategy is to go on like today,it can go on like this for ever, for both sides. armenia must have a strong army and strong diaspora international propaganda must go on. Also,more realistic way is to hope Kurds do something in Turkey.


You see, Im not interested this kind of power struggles. We have millions of your counterparts here. They are the ones killing the christians .And believe me ,while you dream to take your lands back by force,they also think ,they can anytime just simply walk in ,and invade your country.they are just waiting a reason to do that.

ı offer a different solution. I say, we must first start to understand what caused the problem. This means ,

1.religion and cultural differences caused the genocide,not racial reasons.this means we are real sisters and brothers divided by religon.
2.as long as religons exist ,like they are today,we have no chance to live together,for ever.
3.since it is very difficult ,to destroy islam and christianity,we must find a way to make islam and christianity come close to each other. Traditions of islam must be tamed.and the best way to do this is alevi way of religon. a christian must be able to pray in a mosque and a muslim must pray in a church. may be than religon can be a good binding tool as it should have been goaled.
4.turkey must very strongly be pushed into eu project. this is the only way to make turks to look at armenian problem more humane and civilised way.if they throw away turkey out of eu for sure, ım afraid this will bring terrible consequınces not only for armenia, but for all the world.
5. if by eu s methods turkish people can learn what real human rights,democracy is, and economicly develop,then armenian-turkish conflict will end.
6. if turkey can reach to that level, you will not need to get lands or money from turkey which is extreme dream. borders will fully open to armenians to work,live,buy lands and invest as aresult of eu politics. armenians and greeks will be welcomed to their ancient lands as first class people. Anatolian people will again get together ,but this time as equal citizens.

these are very possible to happen,but there is great difficulty of solving religon problem.and that ı dont know how can be.

peace

lal, bigots like crusader1492 want things to remain the way they are now. They like to walk big in their little community, strut about that small stage like peaxxxxs, spewing forth about how "Armenian" they are, and how vile all Turks are. Any Armenians who don't toe their extremist line are accused of not being real Armenians, or even of being Turks. (Just like their Turkish equivalents who accuse their opponents of actually being "Armenians").

My advice to you is don't try to have any dialog with crusader1492 and those like him. Don't engage with them at all. OK, sometimes it's fun to torment them, but it's a hollow form of amusement - in the end it is best not to have any contact with them. Note the things that they say, since they exist and have influence and are very vocal, but marginalise them by not engaging with them. Give to them the contempt they deserve.