Hello I am new here

[1.5 million]

I think that Lal brought an interesting and legitimate perspective - even if it was one that I think was lacking in many respects (far too much generalization and application of pre-formed conclusions without specific facts or detailed understanding for instance - even if she had some insightful and noteworthy observations). And anyone who claims that they have nothing to learn - particularly concerning a historical subject such as this one - where no one fully understands every aspect and persepctive - well is showing thier lack of understanding and unwillingness to be open to facts/knowledge - and that is sad - because it is those people who have their pre-set answers for everything and who are unable to process new information and modify their knowledge and opinions accordingly - who will keep us in the impass we are in today. Furthermore it is all too easy - and hopelessly sad - to form the conclusion - as Lal has - that there is no hope to change anything because of some vast consipiracy theory that the bacteria or such are controlling everything and we are just acting our parts with no ability to alter the predestination of things...sounds like a religion to me Lal...

[bell-the-cat]

I believe there is a bridge between true believers of Islam and Christianity or whatever , it is called Sufi.

Yes, trot along to New York's, Metropolitan Museum of Art and see how the politically correct have worked Suffism into an exhibition to reveal how wonderfully tolerant and inclusive and gentle Islam is.

[bell-the-cat]

I think that Lal brought an interesting and legitimate perspective - even if it was one that I think was lacking in many respects (far too much generalization and application of pre-formed conclusions without specific facts or detailed understanding for instance - even if she had some insightful and noteworthy observations). And anyone who claims that they have nothing to learn - particularly concerning a historical subject such as this one - where no one fully understands every aspect and persepctive - well is showing thier lack of understanding and unwillingness to be open to facts/knowledge - and that is sad - because it is those people who have their pre-set answers for everything and who are unable to process new information and modify their knowledge and opinions accordingly - who will keep us in the impass we are in today. Furthermore it is all too easy - and hopelessly sad - to form the conclusion - as Lal has - that there is no hope to change anything because of some vast consipiracy theory that the bacteria or such are controlling everything and we are just acting our parts with no ability to alter the predestination of things...sounds like a religion to me Lal...

She didn't say she had nothing to learn. She said there was nothing to be learned from those here, and nothing to say since they were not listening, and nothing to debate because they don't know how to debate. And Crusader considered that to be a win.

"Those people who have their pre-set answers for everything and who are unable to process new information and modify their knowledge and opinions accordingly" is a perfect description for most of those Armenians who have set themselves up as spokespersons and advocates for all Armenians. How I wish the silent majority would rise up and kick out these useless, parasitic people.

[imported_crusader1492]

...And Crusader considered that to be a win.

Stop with these whacky attempts at profiling me...
I did not want Lal to leave. This is not a game where I "win".
Besides, I'm not the only member here...There are other members to "learn" from. Hell, it's possible that she left because of you...maybe she did not like your advances.

What happened was that I challenged some of her beleifs and she chose not to stick around and counter challenge.

What would you have me do? Accept as true and worship everything lal says because on the surface she is a "moderate Turk"?
Should I be like you and fall all over myself in order to win a Turks friendship at the drop of a hat?
Sorry, I'm not a sycophant.

[Gavur]

Yes, trot along to New York's, Metropolitan Museum of Art and see how the politically correct have worked Suffism into an exhibition to reveal how wonderfully tolerant and inclusive and gentle Islam is.

You mean that's also hijacked?

[bell-the-cat]

You mean that's also hijacked?

Most of the Islamic-period works are not on display due to a renovation. Instead they have a "highlights" display in which selected material from very diverse regions and time-periods are brought together and displayed allong side big display boards containing "soft and fluffy" Sufi texts (mostly texts by Rumi). I.e. they are making out that an obscure branch of Islamic thought, important only for a brief period many centuries ago, is representative of the whole religion throughout its whole existence.

[phantom]

Don't do it for Armenians, especially not for the sort of Armenians you will encounter online. No matter what you say, they will, in the end, always want more, always doubt your good faith, always insult you.

I agree with much of what you say about how lal should approach the Armenian Genocide. However, your remarks, as noted above, are so infused with racism and offensive stereotyping that I am deeply offended and angered.

[phantom]

Lal made some good points. So did Crusader.

If the majority of Turks thought like Lal, the border between Armenia and Turkey would be opened, and Turkey would acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. On religion, however, Lal is an extremist. Moreover, she doesn't know the Armenian people nor their religion. If she knew, then she would not object to our religion. If she disagrees, I invite her to cite a single instance in Armenian history in which Armenia or Armenians attacked another group in an effort to impose their religion.

Crusader, I think it's premature to try to talk with Turks, even moderate ones, about reparations in the form of land. No Turk, whether moderate or nationalist, is ready for that. Moreover, Armenia is not ready for that, and certainly diasporans like us are not ready for that. Are you ready for that? I much prefer Lal's solution. If the border between Turkey and Armenia becomes like the border between Spain and France, then why do we need ownership of Diyarbakir? If an Armenian can live and work freely in Turkey, and a Turk can live and work freely in Armenia (as the Euros do under the European model) isn't that better than taking some cheap land and spending billions trying to defend it? I'm not saying that Armenia should not have a strong military, at least one powerful enough to inflict major pain on any invaders. But the goal between Turks and Armenians should be peace, and it isn't very peaceful to be talking about taking your neighbors land (even if it used to be yours a thousand years ago).

Last point, I think you are right that Lal left because she got creeped out by Bell's advances, not your arguments with her. I think Lal loves a good argument, and I don't think she would leave because of that.

[imported_crusader1492]

Lal made some good points. So did Crusader.

If the majority of Turks thought like Lal, the border between Armenia and Turkey would be opened, and Turkey would acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. On religion, however, Lal is an extremist. Moreover, she doesn't know the Armenian people nor their religion. If she knew, then she would not object to our religion. If she disagrees, I invite her to cite a single instance in Armenian history in which Armenia or Armenians attacked another group in an effort to impose their religion.

Crusader, I think it's premature to try to talk with Turks, even moderate ones, about reparations in the form of land. No Turk, whether moderate or nationalist, is ready for that. Moreover, Armenia is not ready for that, and certainly diasporans like us are not ready for that. Are you ready for that? I much prefer Lal's solution. If the border between Turkey and Armenia becomes like the border between Spain and France, then why do we need ownership of Diyarbakir? If an Armenian can live and work freely in Turkey, and a Turk can live and work freely in Armenia (as the Euros do under the European model) isn't that better than taking some cheap land and spending billions trying to defend it? I'm not saying that Armenia should not have a strong military, at least one powerful enough to inflict major pain on any invaders. But the goal between Turks and Armenians should be peace, and it isn't very peaceful to be talking about taking your neighbors land (even if it used to be yours a thousand years ago).

Last point, I think you are right that Lal left because she got creeped out by Bell's advances, not your arguments with her. I think Lal loves a good argument, and I don't think she would leave because of that.

Hi Phantom,

Although I agree with your assessment, I think it is still important to plant the seed that land reparations are somthing that has to happen sometime. I'm not talking about Diyabakir (that is a Kurdish city now)- I'm talking about returning Mt Ararat and returning some terratory that would allow Armenia full control and access to a Black Sea port.
These are long-term goals that should never be discounted. If Armenia is going to flourish (not just survive), it will need to better control its own destiny.
I look at it this way: Right now Armenia is in a precarious position as it relies on Russia as a gateway to the world economy. In the event that Turkey opens it border and alliviates this situation, Armenia still is at the mercy of a foriegn country for its economic welfare.
In short, Armenia needs a port of its own as a means to insure a prosperous future without the unpredictability of a third party. Moreover, since Turkey almost killed the nation of Armenia, they owe us this land to help bring Armenia back to life...we should never let them forget this whether there ready for it or not.

[bell-the-cat]

Last point, I think you are right that Lal left because she got creeped out by Bell's advances, not your arguments with her. I think Lal loves a good argument, and I don't think she would leave because of that.

If we ever meet in real life, then kindly point yourself out to me so I can give you something nice. Or you could choose to be the coward you are here, and remain a phantom.

Lal left because she was so disgusted with the attitudes Armenians displayed towards her on this forum that she feared if she did hang around longer she would loose her sympathy for Armenians in general. I will pm her to ask her to confirm this.