The sense of loss?

[Sako]

Re: The sense of loss?

So now, You become brit? werent you accusing brits for your defeat?

Just because he says NZ was part of the British Empire doesn't mean he's saying he's British. Is this how a Turkish wolf's mind always works? Just read a post as it's written and stop looking for holes for Ataturk's sake!

[hrai]

Re: The sense of loss?

So now, You become brit? werent you accusing brits for your defeat?

Just because he says NZ was part of the British Empire doesn't mean he's saying he's British. Is this how a Turkish wolf's mind always works? Just read a post as it's written and stop looking for holes for Ataturk's sake!

No, turcs look at words in a sentence/document and then re-arrange them to try to suit their argument.

[Crimson Glow]

Re: The sense of loss?

There a flawed laws in Turkey as well as flawed politicians. Why they choose to criminalize, prosecute or threaten over this issue is beyond my comprehension. I think these self proclaimed patriots are misguided and add unneccessary fuel to the fire and unwittingly support a genocide industry within the Armenian diaspora.

I'll agree with that much. Prolonging the acceptance of the Armenian genocide has just made them look that much worse, and drawn that much more attention to the subject. Had they accepted this like grownups DECADES ago, it would have just been another piece of history that people are too lazy to know or care about, rather than something that's in the news every year due to the "controversy" over the subject.

There's nothing to cover up, what started out as an attempt at ethnic cleansing turned into a massacre in the spectre of poverty and war. There may be sufficient proof to suggest that due to the wilful neglect and lack of protection afforded to innocent civilians, 'genocide' may be applicable when modern standards are retrospectively applied to this definition. But so could countless tragedies throughout history. Are we going to go back and categorize each and every one? If you do, I'll agree to everything and anything Armenians want.

It seems like you haven't really looked into the history of this event too much. This was planned from the beginning, thus why all the able bodied Ottoman Armenian were conscripted into the Ottoman army, where they were then rounded up, worked to death, or immediately killed in the early/winter months of 1915 (well prior to the April 24th date). This would leave the Armenians defenseless. Then came the April 24th round up of all the intellectual leaders of the Armenian communities (doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc). This would leave them leaderless. THEN they were left with nothing more than women, children and the elderly. There is also ample evidence that special units were sent in ON PURPOSE to attack these convoys, as it would be much easier to do than a handful of Turkish/German soldiers trying to wipe out entire caravans. Every aspect of the Armenians' deaths, whether by disease and starvation, or flat out murder, was intentionally crafted and designed from the beginning.

Let us also not forget that the Armenians, who were the wealthiest people in the empire, were forced to leave behind all their possessions, and could only bring along what they could gather and carry within a 2 hour time span (if not immediately told they must leave). These things helped shape and afford your "glorious republic" today.

I like your analogy. It's something I was looking for to comprehend your position a little better. It's too simplistic though as property is a lot more complex. Legally speaking they were Ottoman lands, not yours.

No, they weren't. That would be the equivalent to saying that since US has now taken over Iraq, Iraq, its people, its resources, its homes, etc. all belong to the US. Property of America. And to give you an analogy to Turkey's excuse that they were justified in their actions, it would also be the equivalent to saying that the US has every right to "relocate" every single Sunni Muslim in Iraq on account of the "huge rebellions" Sunni insurgents are conducting against the US army.

Came out of no where? We've only been in anatolia for around 1000 years, that's quite a long time last time I checked..

Yes, came out of no where. As in your predecessors came out of Mongolia, migrated to Anatolia, and obtained those through barbaric means (no, that doesn't make you "cool", or a "bad ass"), stealing the food, dances, music and culture of the indigenous people along the way. BTW, Seljuk Turks were present there around 1000 years ago, not to be confused with the Ottoman Turks who were their successors, and were the ones that actually took the lands in question. The Ottomans are only about 600 years old.

Back to law school again. Every understood the concept of "bankruptcy"? Well basically bankruptcy laws wipes the slate clean. The demise of the Ottoman empire was the end of that corporation as we know it. What follows, being the Republic of Turkey does not inherit any debts or obligations, it's basically like we're virgins, pure as the driven snow :-)

Oh, I understand how bankruptcy works perfectly. However, what YOU continuously fail to understand is the circumstances of this situation. The Ottoman Empire didn't file for bankruptcy. They were a company on their death beds who were taken over by a new CEO that felt he could do a better job running it, or more accurately, they "reinvented" themselves. Change the company name, get rid of the "ugly, Arabic" text in favor of a European one, become more "democratic", etc. It's not like they folded shop, and some completely different entity bought the building. It would have been one thing if all the Ottoman TURKS picked up their stuff and left because they "filed for bankruptcy". But that's not what happened. The occupiers were still the same Ottoman Turkish citizens, many of whom were participants in the genocide. They resided on the same, violently stolen lands that they had a hand in taking. Many of the members of the new government (or board of directors) were from the previous government, and the same policies of pan-Turkism was continued, etc. You're not fooling anyone with the "we changed our names, so we're totally unrelated people!!11" falacy. That's not a new entity. That's marketing, or trying to make yourself more marketable.

As for morality, here's one of my favourite quotes:

“Morality is simply the attitude we adopt towards people whom we personally dislike.”
Oscar Wilde

Yes, or you can say our (human) universally accepted dislikes were formed DUE to our sense of morality, not the other way around.

LOL now THERE'S irony. Using the AG to blackmail Turkey??? That's a Turkish tactic. THEY'RE the ones that have threatened everyone and their mother if they recognize the AG, distribute books, movies, articles about it, teach it in schools, etc. Blackmailing people over the AG issue is Turkey's game.

My naive friend, do you realy think countried who recognize AG did it because of "humanity".

That is not the point, or the issue, here. Regardless of why they recognize the AG, there are many nations who would LIKE to, but can't on account of threats from your nation (i.e. America can no longer go through Turkey to conduct their wars in the Middle East, the HUGE arms deal canceled with France due to their acceptance of the AG, etc). The point remains that it is Turkey that does the blackmailing over this issue, not the other way around.

Make no mistake about it, no one is blackmailing Turkey into opening boarders. There are ulterior motives at work here that will benefit Turkey in the long run, and erase Armenia from the Earth if they go through, and unfortunately, our leaders either don't understand this, or don't care. This is why most Armenians are in an uproar over President Sarkisyan's signing of the "Roadmap" agreement with Turkey, and why the Dashnag party pulled out of the government. So who's the naive one, here?

[Palavra]

Re: The sense of loss?

The point remains that it is Turkey that does the blackmailing over this issue, not the other way around.

Turkey have right to use political mean against a political decision. It is not called blackmailing but countering.

Make no mistake about it, no one is blackmailing Turkey into opening boarders.

You think so? dont you think obama a little blackmailed Turkey?

There are ulterior motives at work here that will benefit Turkey in the long run, and erase Armenia from the Earth if they go through, and unfortunately, our leaders either don't understand this, or don't care.

what can Turkey do? all of important thing at ROA is already hand of russians.(So we cannot buy anything important.)

Opening border will increase welfare of armenians and ROA will have chance to rescue herself from russia when Turkey is paying price.(Making her relation bad with azeris.)

And pls dont waste my time with fantasies that Turks will immigrate ROA. ROA is not germany or USA. It has not enough job even for her citizens.. Only some weird guys immigrate ROA. Most probably, Citizen of ROA will immigrate Turkey and buy land.

This is why most Armenians are in an uproar over President Sarkisyan's signing of the "Roadmap" agreement with Turkey, and why the Dashnag party pulled out of the government. So who's the naive one, here?

Because They are moron. Becoming Dashnag is not such intelligent this. Why did dashnags supported Ittihatists?

They were moron at past and they are still moron now. They are trying to conquer world when they have no xxxx.

Half of ROA population went out of ROA and You still think that You are gaining something from status qua? Even Turkey only give van to ROA, You cannot populate it.

Let make it easy. You have two alternative, to become puppet of russia and to live under poor life conditions or to make peace with turks(both azeris and turkey turks.)

Choose intelligently. Anyway, how much vote do dashnaks have at ROA?

[Sako]

Re: The sense of loss?

We aren't saying we don't have problems, Palavra, but I'd rather live with our problems then live with yours. Hands Down.

Make no mistake about it, no one is blackmailing Turkey into opening boarders.

Crimson, I think your slightly mistaken. Please forgive me if I'm wrong but all the news stations have been shouting out that Obama told Turkish officials that if they don't agree to open the borders WITHOUT preconditions, he will use the word Genocide in his speech. That is the ONLY reason why Turkey is hanging it's head now. So if you want to blame anyone for any problems that may arise in the future, blame Obama. Something fisheye's going on here and it's strange that America wants these borders open so much. I doubt it's because of their good will...

And Palavra, Armenia has nothing to gain from these borders opening. Turkey is the one that needs these borders open and don't worry about jobs or anything. Turkey will PAY Turkish families to live in Armenia. You don't seem to know a thing about politics.

No, turcs look at words in a sentence/document and then re-arrange them to try to suit their argument.

Oh yeahhhhh, like they rearranged our ENTIRE HISTORY, lol.

[Palavra]

Re: The sense of loss?

And Palavra, Armenia has nothing to gain from these borders opening. Turkey is the one that needs these borders open

Tell me why we need these borders? It is funny. until now, It is ROA which is asking for borders and now, It becomes Turkey which need borders.

Turkey will PAY Turkish families to live in Armenia. You don't seem to know a thing about politics.

Turkey wont do this. There is no reason to do this and ROA can easly control this.

[Sako]

Re: The sense of loss?

Turkey wont do this. There is no reason to do this and ROA can easly control this.

Never say won't ... especially when you don't understand politics. And no, ROA can't easily control this ... because there were no preconditions when opening the borders. I might be wrong but it's not as simple as you think.

Tell me why we need these borders? It is funny. until now, It is ROA which is asking for borders and now, It becomes Turkey which need borders.

I can give you many reasons but I'll let a more experienced member give you an explanation. Materially, Turkish will gain a lot, don't worry.

[Palavra]

Re: The sense of loss?

Never say won't ... especially when you don't understand politics. And no, ROA can't easily control this ... because there were no preconditions when opening the borders. I might be wrong but it's not as simple as you think.

You dont need to put precondition for a law in your own country. Turkey limited selling land to others when we are in a custom union. It is more simple than You think.(legally.) Specially a country ruled by mafia.(and illegally)

You can afraid from that after opening borders, ROA cannot make enemity against Turkey but It is funny to afraid that turkey will overtake ROA with trade..

I can give you many reasons but I'll let a more experienced member give you an explanation. Materially, Turkish will gain a lot, don't worry.

I am waiting. Turkey will gain some from trade but Lost from opening border will be bigger.

[Sako]

Re: The sense of loss?

You dont need to put precondition for a law in your own country. Turkey limited selling land to others when we are in a custom union. It is more simple than You think.(legally.) Specially a country ruled by mafia.(and illegally)

Interesting view but you forget that we can't stop the Turks from entering our country. Turkey wants it's people to rush through Armenia. Don't think that your officials are stupid.

You can afraid from that after opening borders, ROA cannot make enemity against Turkey but It is funny to afraid that turkey will overtake ROA with trade..

Not only with trade ...

I am waiting. Turkey will gain some from trade but Lost from opening border will be bigger.

What will Turkey lose Palavra?

[hipeter924]

Re: The sense of loss?

Agree. You had better weapon and more soldiers. That is why we glorify dardanellas wars.



Hmm. Infact, Brits entered istanbul later.



So now, You become brit? werent you accusing brits for your defeat?

1. What? So you can say "80,000 people (or that sort of large number) heroically died defending their country, oh and by the way...our enemies lost far less than us and won the entire war"

2. Does it really matter. They could have conquered it...and they sure as hell didn't decide to.

3. Failed logic of yours there. :P Britain controlled the Empire...that does not mean that its colonies did not have some form of self governance...they had to...Britain was so far away.

4. For final point....I'll leave that for next time