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I just realized I wrote "eight" instead of "eighty."
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Don't forget, they did invent the cannon to topple Constantinople, that is, when they weren't busy stealing non-muslim babies for their Janissaries.Originally posted by duskenAchkerov kute.Comment
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Some non-turkish examples from famous historians:Originally posted by dusken
By the way as I remember Bernard Lewis, one of the most respectful historian from Oxford University is solicidated by the USA Armenian community because that he supported Turkish thesis.
I found an interesting statement of USA academicians submitted to US House of Representatives, a neutral statement that summarize most of the issues like why we deny your claim genocide, what happened to Turks at WW1.
No need to write more but please someone expain me the point about Mongolians, what is the relation between Turks and Mongolians.
Your ideas about Turkish hiatory is totally racist. No need to answer but only one point: if we are really ignorant barbaric tribe without a culture, why was most of your grandmothers and grandfathers speaking Turkish even at their homes instead of Armenian, why were a lot of Armenian composer writing only Turkish music, why were you adopted lots of things from Turkish culture, why was only Armenians at Ottoman Empire that assimilated under turkish culture?
I advice you not to be ashamed from your asian origin. It is not something to be ashamed and don't try to proove that you are some sort of Europens because it is not. Armenians are totally asian both ethnicaly and culturally like assyrans, maronites, nastourians. And it is not a bad thing. Don't deny your origins.
Finally I recommend you to come to Turkey. I tis obvious that none of you have beed to Turkey before. Come and see both the places your ancestors lived and meet Turks. Maybe then you can quit your stereotypes about us.
EVANS, Laurence- United States Policy and The Partition of Turkey (1914-1924), Baltimore, The Johns Hopkins Press, 1965
FEİGL, Erich-, A Myth of Terror: Armenian Extremism: Its Causes and Its Historical Context, Edition Zeitgeschichte-Freilassing, Austria.
McCARTHY, Justin-, Muslims and Minorities: The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire, New York and London, New York University Press, 1983.
SHAW, Stanford J., and Ezel Kural-, History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey: Reform, Revolution and Rebublic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975, Vol.II, Cambridge University Press, London 1977.
TO THE MEMBERS OF THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
The undersigned American academicians who specialize in Turkish, Ottoman and Middle Eastern Studies are concerned that the current language embodied in House Joint Resolution 192 is misleading and/or inaccurate in several respects.
Specifically, while fully supporting the concept of a "National Day of Remembrance of Man's Inhumanity to Man," we respectfully take exception to that portion of the text which singles out for special recognition:
". . . the one and one half million people of Armenian ancestry who were victims of genocide perpetrated in Turkey between 1915 and 1923 . . .."
Our reservations focus on the use of the words "Turkey' and "genocide" and may be summarized as follows:
From the fourteenth century until 1922, the area currently known as Turkey, or more correctly, the Republic of Turkey, was part of the territory encompassing the multinational, multi-religious state known as the Ottoman Empire. It is wrong to equate the Ottoman Empire with the Republic of Turkey in the same way that it is wrong to equate the Hapsburg Empire with the Republic of Austria. The Ottoman Empire, which was brought to an end in 1922, by the successful conclusion of the Turkish Revolution which established the present day Republic of Turkey in 1923, incorporated lands and people which today account for more than twenty-five distinct countries in Southeastern Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East, only one of which is the Republic of Turkey. The Republic of Turkey bears no responsibility for any events which occurred in Ottoman times, yet by naming 'Turkey' in the Resolution, its authors have implicitly labeled it as guilty of "genocide" it charges transpired between 1915 and 1923;
As for the charge of "genocide," no signatory of this statement wishes to minimize the scope of Armenian suffering. We are likewise cognizant that it cannot be viewed as separate from the suffering experienced by the Muslim inhabitants of the region. The weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direct of serious inter communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World War. Indeed, throughout the years in question, the region was the scene of more or less continuous warfare, not unlike the tragedy which has gone on in Lebanon for the past decade. The resulting death toll among both Muslim and Christian communities of the region was immense. But much more remains to be discovered before historians will be able to sort out precisely responsibility between warring and innocent, and to identify the causes for the events which resulted in the death or removal of large numbers of the eastern Anatolian population, Christian and Muslim alike.
Statesmen and politicians make history, and scholars write it. For this process to work scholars must be given access to the written records of the statesmen and politicians of the past. To date, the relevant archives in the Soviet Union, Syria, Bulgaria and Turkey all remain, for the most part, closed to dispassionate historians. Until they become available, the history of the Ottoman Empire in the period encompassed by H.J. Res. 192 (1915-1923) cannot be adequately known.
We believe that the proper position for the United States Congress to take on this and related issues is to encourage full and open access to all historical archives and not to make charges on historical events before they are fully understood. Such charges as those contained H.J. Res. 192 would inevitably reflect unjustly upon the people of Turkey and perhaps set back irreparably progress historians are just now beginning to achieve in understanding these tragic events.
As the above comments illustrate, the history of the Ottoman-Armenians is much debated among scholars, many of whom do not agree with the historical assumptions embodied in the wording of H.J. Res. 192. By passing the resolution Congress will be attempting to determine by legislation which side of the historical question is correct. Such a resolution, based on historically questionable assumptions, can only damage the cause of honest historical inquiry, and damage the credibility of the American legislative process.
SIGNATORIES TO THE STATEMENT ON H.J. RES. 192 ADDRESSED TO THE MEMBERS OF THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
RIFAAT ABOU-EL-HAJ Professor of History California State University at Long Beach
RODERIC DAVISON Professor of History George Washington University
SARAH MOMENT ATIS Professor of Turkish Language & Literature University of Wisconsin at Madison
WALTER DENNY Professor of Art History Associate & Near Eastern Studies University of Massachusetts
KARL BARBIR Associate Professor of History Siena College (New York)
DR. ALAN DUBEN Anthropologist, Researcher New York City
ILHAN BASGOZ Director of the Turkish Studies Program at the Department of Ural-Altaic Studies Indiana University
ELLEN ERVIN Research Assistant Professor of Turkish New York University
DANIEL G. BATES Professor of Anthropology Hunter College, City University of New York
CAESAR FARAH Professor of Islamic & Middle Eastem History University of Minnesota
ULKU BATES Professor of Art History Hunter College, City University of New York
CARTER FINDLEY Associate Professor of History The Ohio State University
GUSTAV BAYERLE Professor of Uralic & Altaic Studies Indiana University
MICHAEL FINEFROCK, Professor of History College of Charleston
ANDREAS G. E. BODROGLIGETTI Professor of Turkic & Iranian languages University of California at Los Angeles
ALAN FISHER Professor of History Michigan State University
KATHLEEN BURRILL Associate Professor of Turkish Studies Columbia University
CORNELL FLEISCHER Assistant Professor of History Washington University (Missouri)
TIMOTHY CHILDS Professorial Lecturer at SAIS, Johns Hopkins University
PETER GOLDEN Professor of History Rutgers University, Newark
SHAFIGA DAULET Associate Professor of Political Science University of Connecticut
TOM GOODRICH Professor of History Indiana University of Pennsylvania
JUSTIN McCARTHY Associate Professor of History University of Louisville
ANDREW COULD Ph.D. in Ottoman History Flagstaff, Arizona
JON MANDAVILLE Professor of the History of the Middle East Portland State University (Oregon)
MICHAEL MEEKER Professor of Anthropology University of California at San Diego
RHOADS MURPHEY Assistant Professor of Middle Eastern Languages, Cultures & History Columbia University
THOMAS NAFF Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research Institute University of Pennsylvania
PIERRE OBERLING Professor of History Hunter College of the City University of New York
WILLIAM OCHSENWALD Associate Professor of History Virginia Polytechnic Institute
ROBERT OLSON Associate Professor of History University of Kentucky
WILLIAM PEACHY Assistant Professor of the Judaic, Near Eastern Languages & Literatures The Ohio State University
DONALD QUATAERT Associate Professor of History University of Houston
HOWARD REED Professor of History University of Connecticut
WILLIAM GRISWOLD Professor of History Colorado State University
TIBOR HALASI-KUN Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies Columbia University
WILLIAM HICKMAN Associate Professor of Turkish University of California, Berkeley
J. C. HUREWITZ Professor of Government Emeritus Former Director of the Middle East Institute (1971-1984) Columbia University
JOHN HYMES Professor of History Glenville State College West Virginia
HALIL INALCIK University Professor of Ottoman History, Member of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences University of Chicago
RALPH JAECKEL Visiting Assistant Professor of Turkish University of California at Los Angeles
RONALD JENNINGS Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies University of Illinois
JAMES KELLY Associate Professor of Turkish University of Utah
KERIM KEY Adjunct Professor Southeastern University Washington, D.C.
DANKWART RUSTOW Distinguished University Professor of Political Science City University Graduate School New York
ELAINE SMITH Ph.D. in Turkish History Retired Foreign Service Officer Washington, D·C·
STANFORD SHAW Professor of History University of California at Los Angele
EZEL KURAL SHAW Associate Professor of History California State University, Northridge
METIN KUNT Professor of Ottoman History New York City
FREDERICK LATIMER Associate Professor of History Retired University of Utah
AVIGDOR LEVY Professor of History Brandeis University
BERNARD LEWIS Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History Princeton University
DR. HEATH W. LOWRY Institute of Turkish Studies Inc. Washington, D.C.
GRACE M. SMITH Visiting Lecturer in Turkish University of California at Berkeley
JOHN MASSON SMITH, JR. Professor of History University of California at Berkeley
DR. SVAT SOUCEK Turcologist, New York City
ROBERT STAAB Assistant Director of the Middle East Center University of Utah
JUNE STARR Associate Professor of Anthropology SUNY Stony Brook
JAMES STEWART-ROBINSON Professor of Turkish Studies University of Michigan
DR. PHILIP STODDARD Executive Director, Middle East Institute Washington, D.C.
FRANK TACHAU Professor of Political Science University of Illinois at Chicago
METIN TAMKOC Professor of International Law and Regulations Texas Tech University
DAVID THOMAS Associate Professor of History Rhode Island College
MARGARET L. VENZKE Assistant Professor of History xxxxinson College (Pennsylvania)
WARREN S. WALKER Home Professor of English & Director of the Archive of Turkish Oral Narrative Texas Tech University
DONALD WEBSTER Professor of Turkish History, Retired
WALTER WEIKER Professor of Political Science Rutgers University
JOHN WOODS Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History University of Chicago
MADELINE ZILFI Associate Professor of History University of MarylandComment
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Of course, you do realize that what you just did is waste bandwidth, don't you? Citing names of court historians who do not acknowledge the Turkish crimes against Armenians means nothing. I can sit here and cite names of historians who do recognize the events as stated. It proves everything and it proves nothing.
But the fact that you idiotically claimed you are here to try to "understand us", yet spew forth the same regurgitated nonsense only shows that you did not come here to engage in any thoughtful discussion, but rather to adamantly push your same nonsensical position, which you have heard since birth, from every orifice of communication.
As far as Mongolians and Turks, do you not know your own Asiatic roots? The Turks were a Mongoloid peoples that came from the steppes of the East, and they speak an Altaic language, in the same group with the Finno-Ugric-Hunnish strands. The barbarian blood lust has always been present in them Asiatics.Achkerov kute.Comment
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Don't forget the part about how Turks right after they pillaged ASia minor and most of eastern Europe, don't forget how they changed their alphabet from Altaic to Latin in an effort to conceal their cowardly murders and their traces of invading that region. They all did this to supposedly "Europeanize" but they are fooling nobody and the more Tufan speaks the more it shows that he is trying his hardest to really resist the truth that his people are guilty of. He just confirms my point the more he spouts those half-truths and babble.When the World Wide Web was born, things were quite simple. The internet supported just one device (the PC) and the browsers available were too primitive for me.Comment
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Originally posted by Tufan
What relevance or bearing does that have upon the crime your people are guilty of? You went out of your way so far to the point where you literally took matters into your own hands by saying that rubbish and by trying to convince us on a forum that your people are not responsible for the savagely killings that you inflicted upon Armenians.
You talk like Armenians do not have a reason to feel the way they do about your people's ignorant mentality. HELLLOOOOO you only destroyed and pillaged like over 1.5 million people and ransacked their cities that they worked hard to build.When the World Wide Web was born, things were quite simple. The internet supported just one device (the PC) and the browsers available were too primitive for me.Comment
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Armenians are not Asian. They were mostly in the Asia minor and throughout the Balkans area and there is proof for that, whereas YOUR TURKS are not only of Mongol descent but you are not even close to being in the same league as middle-easterners even. I would understand that if maybe you guys were of Arab or Persian descent but you really are not even that. You come from CENTRAL ASIA, who is "asian" now? Armenians are and always will be one of the original European tribes and you guys just cannot stomach that piece of truth.When the World Wide Web was born, things were quite simple. The internet supported just one device (the PC) and the browsers available were too primitive for me.Comment
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Tufan READ:
The first historical references to the Turks appear in Chinese records of about 200 B.C. These records refer to tribes called the Hsiung-nu, an early form of the Western term Hun, who lived in an area bounded by the Altay Mountains, Lake Baikal, and the northern edge of the Gobi Desert and are believed to have been the ancestors of the Turks. (AFTER READING ALL OF THAT HOW CAN YOU DENY AND TELL ME THAT YOU GUYS ARE NOT ASIAN AND YOU WERE ALWAYS IN THE REGION? THIS PROVES YOUR ALTAIC ROOTS)
Specific references in Chinese sources in the sixth century A.D. identify the tribal kingdom called Tu-Küe located on the Orkhon River south of Lake Baikal. The khans (chiefs) of this tribe accepted the nominal suzerainty of the Tang dynasty. The earliest known example of writing in a Turkic language was found in that area and can be dated from about A.D. 730.
Also, the records show that Turks came into Asia Minor in 1071 AD after the victory of Malazgirt by the Seljucks (THAT IS where 70% of Armenians were living and had already cultivated that piece of land, HOW THE HELL can you tell me otherwise when you are obviously trying too hard to ditch the reality that your people are guilty murderers?) Look save us and yourself some time and place your petty efforts into changing your heritage of low-leveled neanderthals.When the World Wide Web was born, things were quite simple. The internet supported just one device (the PC) and the browsers available were too primitive for me.Comment
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All you are doing is displaying your Turkish fiction which we already know about. That is no surprise that you will deny it because like every war criminal (nazis etc.) the guilty are the first to oppose such things and deny it to save their own skin from their own cowardly killings.When the World Wide Web was born, things were quite simple. The internet supported just one device (the PC) and the browsers available were too primitive for me.Comment
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Tufan you are simply going in circles trying to throw various concepts up at what the original premise was in order to escape and absolve your people's savage killings. But allow me to remind your numb-brain that:
The Seljuks followed the gazis into Anatolia in order to retain control over them. In 1071 Alp Arslan routed the Byzantine army at Manzikert near Lake Van, opening all of Anatolia to conquest by the Turks. Then, they later FOCUSED THEIR ATTENTIONS on a Christian spot called Armenia.
The religious animosity between the Armenians and the Greeks prevented these two Christian peoples from cooperating against the Turks on the frontier. Although Christianity had been adopted as the official religion of the state by King Titidates III of Armenia around A.D. 300, nearly 100 years before similar action was taken in the Roman Empire, Armenians were converted to a form of Christianity at variance with the Orthodox tradition of the Greek church, and they had their own patriarchate independent of Constantinople. After their conquest by the Sassanians around 400, their religion bound them together as a nation and provided the inspiration for a flowering of Armenian culture in the fifth century. When their homeland fell to the Seljuks in the late eleventh century, large numbers of Armenians were dispersed throughout the Byzantine Empire, many of them settling in Constantinople where present-day Ankara is, where in its centuries of decline they became generals and statesmen as well as craftsmen, builders, and traders all of which the invaders of the East in nomadic tribes called TURKS disliked.When the World Wide Web was born, things were quite simple. The internet supported just one device (the PC) and the browsers available were too primitive for me.Comment
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