Genocide Argument

[anileve]

I am sad to see some get so enraged at steam out of the forum, instead of humbly exploring and respecting their own views as well as others. Anymouse, ckBejuk, Baron Dants, patlajan… gosh do I admire thee!!! I applaud you on your eloquence, intelligence, individuality and revolutionary philosophy. It gives one a sense of butterflies in the stomach to know that intelligence counteroffers ignorance and I believe will always prevail. Don’t ever be afraid to speak your mind, it takes a risqué statement to bring upon some changes.

Disksoleil, if you are really interested in knowing why and how -- a piece of advice: To be taken more diplomatically never step on the man’s open sores and deny they were never there. Listen, be objective and approach with an open mind for that is the only way people can reconcile their differences and weed out that parasite that is called hate. If you ever engage in a conversation with a group of Armenians know that if you want to provoke hate and anger you should start denying that genocide ever happened.

It is time to change things that have been poisoning us for so long, and that change begins from within.

Jahannam, I am sorry to see that you will not put away your sword, for this is just a debate intended for learning and expanding your views, it is not intended for personal insults and belittling battles. And like I have said before if there is no unity there is no strength where there is no strength there is no survival, don’t be quick to denounce and categorize others for you are denying the privileges of the human reasoning.

Damn, I should lay off Confucius!

[TJ]

what i dont understand is. what is there to learn about the genocide? is a turk, someone who's nation has been denying the genocide for 88 years going to teach you something.

The GENOCIDE of 1,500,000 Armenians is something that is not up for discussion as far as i'm concerned. Do you see jews discussing whether or not there was a Holocaust?

Since when did you Armenians become so liberal and weak minded. i think its all of this American propoganda that says keep an open mind, dont hate other people, forgive and forget, move forward. Well xxxx you America and your stupid ass idiotic propoganda. I dont hate turks just because they are turks i hate them because i am Armenian and because they have raped murdered pillaged and disgraced my people for over 600 years, because they have taken my grandparents land and pride.

and if you are willing to forget all this and simply want to move forward &
"progress" then i dont want to know you and i wish there were less Armenians like you. Be strong be a xxxxin ARMENIAN for once, not a stupid xxxxx ass american.

by the way System of a Down dont hate turks. their message is supposed to be tolerance and xxxx like that so no they do not hate turks i read an interview with them where they talked about how they werent against turks at all but only at the government and the American government too. you should go read about them and youll see what they are like. by the way if a turk comes up to me and has the face and brains to personally apoligizes for what his nation has done i am willing to forgive and would not have any biases against the guy from then on.

[xBaron Dants]

Tigran jan, you can't compare the genocide with the jewish holocaust. As much as we say that it is exactly the same thing and that no one can deny it, the fact is that almost everyone is denying it. You have to face the reality that exists, not the reality which you think should exist. Now, since we know that turks have no clue about the genocide, you can do nothing else but educate, by communicating, and we have a brilliant opportunity to do so on this very forum, yet fanaticism will not allow some of us to do the same.

And yes, I know that my use of the word "fanaticism" will get some people all angry and I'll be accused of not being armenian enough, or passionate enough or whatever. The bottom line is, a diplomatic approach is the only one that will get us anywhere, and the only one we should employ since it is exactly their lack of diplomacy which angers us.

And finally, for all those who will say that I am not nationalist or patriotic enough since I do not find killing a turk productive, I will only tell you that for me, patriotism is fueled by love and pride for my own country, and not hate for another. I consider the latter to be unhealthy.

[TJ]

im not "exactly" advocating this, but htink about it. all our problems would be solved if there were no more turks to defile this beautiful planet.

Hate for turkey should be a part of your love and pride for Armenia. it is not a seperate thing. be a xxxxing Armenian, think about our interests for once, not the turks. KU MASSIN MENAK URISH HAYERNEN METATSUM, DU TURKIN HECH PETK CHESS. IRAN MENAK HOGHE POGHE U CHRISTONYA PUTS BRNABAREL NA PETK.

I am not an idiot i understand that without diplomacy you wont get anywhere my point is not to go around killing turks because that wouldnt get us anywhere and would be counterproductive because world opinion would shift against us.

By the way the only people that argue against the genocide are the turks and azeris and selfish jews. if you havent realized by now the majority of the world knows that there was an Armenian Genocide. No educated civilized people in Europe, the US and most of Asia denies the Genocide.

[xBaron Dants]

Well, you do make a good point about many people being aware of the genocide, but it is still incomparable, ESPECIALLY in the country that committed the crime (Turkey vs Germany).

I am in no way caring more about Turkey than Armenia. The less agressive approach I have is only for Armenia's good.

I believe that for far too many people, the hate for Turkey is waaaaaay bigger than normal. Yes, we want justice and yes, we will recieve it, but you can not stop thinking of the future also, as well as other aspects of Armenia.

[Anonymouse]

Jahannam,

I shall no longer engage in a verbal battle with you.

Good idea. Most of us ignore her, she's a little kid, literally and figuratively.

I might be alone here but allowing oneself to be conquered and murdered is also an outrage. And whoever said that recognition of the genocide is our “mission” needs to rewrite their mission statement. Adding a few blurbs in history books around the world is nothing compared to the mission of economic progress, which is the key to everything. Recognitions and apologies won’t keep hunger away, build buildings, or equip soldiers.
Hate is for the weak.

PS- I am also glad to see some new people in the forums.

Wow, could it be that for once I agree with you?

[Anonymouse]

it's seriously sad...
I mean I don't want you guys thinking the way I ended my last post is a result of ...
oooh i'm weak
or
you guys win....
it's just that if YOU guys said the genocide doesn't really have to be recognized we just need to "build Armenia economically" or whatever the hell that was... and then another armenian says oooh we don't need to know how to speak Armenian to be Armenian.... and then another Armenian says turkish and Armenian music are the same and since both turks and Armenians use the word "merci"(compliments of anileve)... that means our cultures are totally the same....
I mean I hope you guys realize what's happening...
does the word "assimilation" ring any bells?
you guys are just encouraging and quickening the process...
and that's just sad...
to me at least...
since obviously you guys don't give a xxxx...
and to be honest...
I'm outa here
this place is not worth staying anymore...
and it seems like I'm the only one left to be bashed by you guys since we have all these new and "cool" turks and anti genocide armos...
sorry... can't have fun with people I don't like...
lates

Hey relax!

First of all no one said anything about hating our culture or our language. After all we are all here in Armenianclub because of our similarities, the past and present that we share, and the future that we will build, whether you will be there is another story.

No one said because Turks and Armenians may use a similar word means their cultures are similar. To misconstrue or twist words to mean that, doesn't make it so.

No one said that you have to speak Armenian to be "100% Armenian". I do not encourage this, but gradually living in the diaspora many Armenians do forget it, which is a sad thing and a reality we must face. I know many Armenians who don't speak it yet are more passionately Armenian than those I know that do speak it.

No one said we don't support Armenians and Turkey's recognition of the genocide. Obviously, Armenia and Armenians come before anyone else.

What we did say is that in the process of things Armenians such as you and Tigran have lost themselves and let their emotions get the better of them.

People like disksoliel who is a Turk came in here to try to learn more about the other side, the other side being us Armenians, and instead of trying to reach out and make her understand, you responded with hatred and invectives, pushing her away. Armenians forget that the people that have to recognize the genocide first are Turks. I don't care how many countries recognize it, until the Turks do it means nothing, and that means we have to reach out to them and make them understand, not distance them by the same hatred that they used during the days of the Young Turks.

Get this through your head, none of us here are self hating Armenians, and none of us encourage the dissolution of our people and culture, but that doesn't mean we have to resort to hatred towards the people that we have problems with. Hatred only breeds more hatred and no communication and understanding will come from that, and the only way is to try to resort to understanding, the one thing all people have in common in this world, communication and reaching out. If not, then we all hide behind our intellectual brick walls of hatred and nothing gets done. There has to be dialogie.

Lastly, if you want to leave, you are doing so on your own accord, do not act as if we did something. You are turning this issue into something totally different from what it initially was and is. I enjoyed your presence here in the forums, but if you don't like to hear opposing views, and instead wallow in your own views and not here anything that contradicts yours, to make yourself believe you are 'right', then by all means leave.

[Anonymouse]

what i dont understand is. what is there to learn about the genocide? is a turk, someone who's nation has been denying the genocide for 88 years going to teach you something.

First of all, this sentence proves to me that you are ignorant in all the things that you spew. The mere fact that you ask a question of 'what is there to learn about the genocide?' already tells me that you haven't learned anything and you don't want to learn anything and instead only want to fill yourself with emotions, because its more comfortable to live in the edifice of thought that has been built around you, since birth, than to question it, and perhaps open yourself up to a new road for enlightenment. So with that said, if you haven't learned anything from or about the genocide, and you don't want to, then how do you expect others to learn about our history, much less how do you expect to teach others of our history, or even reach our to make the Turks understand our side?

The GENOCIDE of 1,500,000 Armenians is something that is not up for discussion as far as i'm concerned. Do you see jews discussing whether or not there was a Holocaust?.

You know, such emotions are often what creates intellectual Berlin walls regarding the study of history. History is always open to revision and correction and change. History shouldn't be discouraged from discussing or studying because one has a personal connection to it, whether you are Armenian, or Jewish, or Chinese, or Russian, or Communist, etc. To be anti intellectual towards history is to be ignorant and that is what prevents us from learning from history, and hence it is doomed to be repeated. I have encountered many Jews who would stifle intellectual study of the Holocaust, because they don't find it comfortable for many of their absurd and exaggerated claims which is necessary maintain the Holocaust as the ONE TRUE MASSACRE of the century, to maintain Israel and the money that flows from it, because many portions of it have been distorted. They reap billions from Germany and the U.S. and this is all documented in the book I mentioned earlier. I don't want the Armenian genocide to equate to that, debased to that, and mutated into that, which clearly will eventually happen, if enough like minded individuals like you had their way.

Presently there are laws in Canada, France, and Germany that do not permit discussin the history surrounding the Holocaust. Why is that? Is it some sort of holy point in time that we are not allowed to discuss? In fact your statement only shows the hatred tied to it, because like many Zionist Jews, some Armenians are taking this point of history to their heads and creating in their minds, prisms of hate and stifling intellectual discourse regarding history, because to discuss it means to question the same history that they have distorted in their minds, and made it some sort of holy crusade which emits hate. The same Jews that don't like the discussion of their holocaust, are the same ones that hate Germans and Palestinians. I find the similar trend in Armenians such as you. Perhaps this is why you do not want people to discuss the genocide, because this ties in to your statement above about not learning anything. Maybe you yourself haven't really studied the genocide and that's why you don't want to question it, because you would rather listen to what other emotional driven Armenians have to say, as opposed to opening the books and archives and facts and studying them for yourself.

Since when did you Armenians become so liberal and weak minded. i think its all of this American propoganda that says keep an open mind, dont hate other people, forgive and forget, move forward. Well xxxx you America and your stupid ass idiotic propoganda. I dont hate turks just because they are turks i hate them because i am Armenian and because they have raped murdered pillaged and disgraced my people for over 600 years, because they have taken my grandparents land and pride..

Once again yet another unfounded assertion by none other than you. Most Armenians are a conservative bunch, and many of us here as well. I, personally, do not like to live with labels that create ideological boundaries, because there is no one objective label that can describe anything, and instead, like history, all things are pliable and subjective, open to interpretation. Whereas I maybe a conservative in one area of my beliefs, I may be a liberal in another, and a moderate in yet another. Stop trying to confine people into rigid categories because essentially that is what fuels your thinking, and in fact the thinking of any group that resorts to a confrontational and anti intellectual approach to things.

and if you are willing to forget all this and simply want to move forward &
"progress" then i dont want to know you and i wish there were less Armenians like you. Be strong be a xxxxin ARMENIAN for once, not a stupid xxxxx ass american..

No one is forgetting the genocide, and more importantly the rich history of Armenians that came way before the genocide and is 90 percent of our history. In fact, methinks that some people here might even know more about the genocide and our history than you would. "Progress" as you call it, comes with time, all people and ideas and things change. The reason why empires come and go is precisely because they have not progressed. If you study Armenian history, one of the main reasons they have survived up until now is their resilience and ability to progress and absorb the different external civilizations that have been imposed upon them. In other words, change is inevitable and if people don't change than you perish. Time brings change, now time doesn't wait for us, it simply moves, and if we want to keep then so we have to change. By "change" I mean we have to stop putting ourselves behind little boundaries of hatred and ignorance and instead try to come to an understanding through education, not childish appeals to our emotions.

[Anonymouse]

im not "exactly" advocating this, but htink about it. all our problems would be solved if there were no more turks to defile this beautiful planet..

You say you aren't advocating this in your first sentence, yet it is implied in your second sentence. Do you even proofread the contradictions you make prior to submitting your post?

Hate for turkey should be a part of your love and pride for Armenia. it is not a seperate thing. be a xxxxing Armenian, think about our interests for once, not the turks. KU MASSIN MENAK URISH HAYERNEN METATSUM, DU TURKIN HECH PETK CHESS. IRAN MENAK HOGHE POGHE U CHRISTONYA PUTS BRNABAREL NA PETK..

I am to guess that if you were in a position of power, and if roles were reversed, you would quickly annihilate Turks wouldn't you?

I am not an idiot i understand that without diplomacy you wont get anywhere my point is not to go around killing turks because that wouldnt get us anywhere and would be counterproductive because world opinion would shift against us. ..

Funny how you yourself aren't sure of what to believe, since your post is full of uncertainties and contradictions, and in fact, gives insight into your character and possible confusions you have in your personal life.

By the way the only people that argue against the genocide are the turks and azeris and selfish jews. if you havent realized by now the majority of the world knows that there was an Armenian Genocide. No educated civilized people in Europe, the US and most of Asia denies the Genocide.

You are absolutely right, the only people that deny is the Turkish government, and most Turks, and hence why we should reach out to them too. If we have reached out to everyone else, then the only thing left is to reach out to them. Thank you for proving my point.

[anileve]

Anon jan, I think I have been struck with a bolt of love… Keep writing like that aziz. All you have to do is to just squint with that degenerate avatar face of yours and I will be more than glad to lend you some of my chromosomes.

I must admit that the thread turned out a bit more hostile than I expected, for reasons not comprehendible by me, some members took this discussion personally. I felt that it was so fulfilling to disagree but yet to be surrounded by such an intelligent and funny bunch of Armos.

I am sad to see jahannam bitterly storm out of the form. I was proud to see some women that were in possession of an intellect and sarcasm in this forum, it is too bad that she was so quick to act upon her emotions.