Religion and Atheism

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

What is wrong with being an atheist?

That piece of philosophy to me seems as an attempt to find a link that in my opinion doesn't exist in religion. they find a minor link but choose to ignore everything else in the religion.
How can people follow a book that basics of the universe wrong, aka sun turning around the earth?

Not just those basics, but it contradicts itself left and right too. :-/

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

No, it was not made up as a joke. You should probably read the article, and the section on criticism. His logic is not flawed and he explains the position you just brought up, about God knowing someone is believing in him but not out of sincerity. Of course God would know. Just read the article, it is explained rather well.

I know I read something about the context in which he proposed it, but I don't have access to it, as all of my books and such are in storage.
At any rate, the article simply says that reason should compel people to believe. That's not how it works. It's going to take more than an inconsistency-laden bronze age text and the word of others (who have no evidence to offer themselves) to make some believe.

If we said the same about Santa and said therefore you should believe in him because you can only gain by doing so, if he turns out to be real, would you be able to believe in him? Fear of hell which there's no evidence for either isn't sufficient reason to believe.

Well I'm glad you are not a post-modernist. But I could be wrong.

Of course not; I'm a scientist.

[Sip]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Actually it gave him and his successors more power. After Vespasian no emperor was proclaimed god like Caesar, Augustus or Nero were. Vespasian was the last one to be proclaimed god. However after Constantine we see that emperors are viewed as the voice of god on earth. In the Middle Ages there were two emperors in all of Europe. Both of them taught they were messengers of god. It gave them something exclusive they were the most powerful being on earth safe for god that is what meant for Constantine to become Christian.

Now this is the kind of an informative and well structured post that is great to see!

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I guess living in western Europe will turn one into an atheist?

If you read about Perennialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy) you will understand that there as always been a Creator, but people throughout history have seen different aspects of the Creator. Some saw multiple gods, others a few, and more recently, only one. The answers are out there, but you will never get them from science because that is not what science was created for nor should do.

What is wrong with being an atheist?

That piece of philosophy to me seems as an attempt to find a link that in my opinion doesn't exist in religion. they find a minor link but choose to ignore everything else in the religion.
How can people follow a book that basics of the universe wrong, aka sun turning around the earth?

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Religion and Atheism

However, as a figure of authority he did convert. The question is why would a powerful man agree to represent something that would take power away from him? The Greek gods were just figures or idols, they didn't represent a form of guidance or intellectual enlightenment.

Actually it gave him and his successors more power. After Vespasian no emperor was proclaimed god like Caesar, Augustus or Nero were. Vespasian was the last one to be proclaimed god. However after Constantine we see that emperors are viewed as the voice of god on earth. In the Middle Ages there were two emperors in all of Europe. Both of them taught they were messengers of god. It gave them something exclusive they were the most powerful being on earth safe for god that is what meant for Constantine to become Christian.

Then you don't know much about Roman/Hellenic religions. Still you haven't given real proof how your god is more real than the other ones.

Enlightenment? Are you kidding me?

[Armanen]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Christianity started off as a cult and wouldn't be the religion today if Constantine hadn't converted. Even in 1400 there were parts of Europe that weren't Christian. Maybe in 2000 years Scientology will be the Christianity of there day.

I got a question to all Christians, why should any person believe in your god and not let us say the gods of Greeks?

I guess living in western Europe will turn one into an atheist?

If you read about Perennialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy) you will understand that there as always been a Creator, but people throughout history have seen different aspects of the Creator. Some saw multiple gods, others a few, and more recently, only one. The answers are out there, but you will never get them from science because that is not what science was created for nor should do.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

No, people's perceptions differ and their memories for the event will differ (your scenario is actually exactly my field), but there is still the truth of what occurred. This is precisely the reason we seek objective measurement in science, btw.
We can be closer or further from the truth, and just because we cannot conclude something is 100% truth, doesn't mean that we should throw the baby out with the bathwater and abandon all efforts for objective measurement of the truth and getting as close to the truth as possible.

That's not what I said. I said half of each story was true and the other half of each story was made up to leave question or doubt in order to persuade the third party that THEIR version of the truth is what really occured. It's impossible to prove something that is entirely made up and difficult to prove that it didn't occur. It's hard to prove something that really happened when half truths of accounts are created to change the events and leave doubt.

[Armanen]

Re: Religion and Atheism

If we take the standpoint that truth cannot be decided to a satisfactory degree for belief, then everything falls apart and we can't know anything about the world at all (i.e. become paralyzed... how can interact with a world you don't know exists?) and it becomes meaningless.
It makes more sense to adopt a criterion, such that when the probability of truth reaches that threshold, then we adopt as fact/truth.

Well I'm glad you are not a post-modernist. But I could be wrong.

[Armanen]

Re: Religion and Atheism

That's a flawed argument (originally proposed as a joke even) and assumes God would appreciate that you "believed" in him just to cover your @ss. And if he's omniscient (as most religions purpose), then he'd know the "true" believers from those that are "believing" for gain.
I think if he did exist and was a benevolent god, then he'd understand that he just didn't provide enough evidence for me to believe. At least it's honest, which is more in line with his alleged teachings (or most of humanity's concept of morality).

Also, by this argument, you should believe in all the gods of the other religions too because what if you're wrong about them? You'd already be making the incorrect wager by only believing in the Christian god by this logic. Further, it's not really that there's nothing lost from believing in a false god... what about the types that fore go medical treatment for prayer? Aren't they seeing harm as a result of their belief?

No, it was not made up as a joke. You should probably read the article, and the section on criticism. His logic is not flawed and he explains the position you just brought up, about God knowing someone is believing in him but not out of sincerity. Of course God would know. Just read the article, it is explained rather well.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Christianity started off as a cult and wouldn't be the religion today if Constantine hadn't converted. Even in 1400 there were parts of Europe that weren't Christian. Maybe in 2000 years Scientology will be the Christianity of there day.

I got a question to all Christians, why should any person believe in your god and not let us say the gods of Greeks?

However, as a figure of authority he did convert. The question is why would a powerful man agree to represent something that would take power away from him? The Greek gods were just figures or idols, they didn't represent a form of guidance or intellectual enlightenment.