Armenian lesbians/gays

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Siggie, it's interesting, isn't it, that the fact that I have chosen to be home with my children seems to have escaped attention?

I feel like I am debating with fish who believe themselves to be ichthyologists, when, in fact, they really have no idea what it means that something is culturally constructed. But these folks are no more representative of the Armenian nation and culture than the Taliban or Al Qaeda are representative of Islam and Muslims. They are the fringe. They make the rest of us look bad. Actually, when I realize that I am sharing my national identity with people who think and behave like Levon, I feel ashamed and embarrased to call myself an Armenian. These people feel like they are preserving some sacred way of life, when in fact their way of life will bring on the ultimate depletion and demise of Armenia, Armenian culture and identity.

Speaking of dogs, I far prefer the company of my dog to that of the Levons of the world.

Yes, that's interesting amd a more glaring omission than the more subtle fact that we've advocated a choice from the start. It's not surprising though. I imagine we're not as easy to attack as the strawwomen offered up in our places.

Yes, they are indeed the fringe because I haven't (thankfully!) encountered people with the same beliefs and warped value system as they have. I mean how can you even argue ANY kind of moral high ground and then practically in the same breath call women dogs, idiots, s1uts, and the like? Just Levon's tone is enough to give people a picture of the type of belligerent personality he possesses. I'm grateful that in his household, it is his wife that is raising their children. She cannot possibly be that way too, right? At least she might teach them a different level of discourse. :-x

I agree with you though. If Armenian culture became Levon's ideal and to a slightly lesser extent Mos's (Mos is actually not quite as extreme in some other views, for instance women in govt. and leadership roles if I recall correctly), I would distance and disassociate too.

I would prefer the company of your dog as well. I'm sure it displays more respect for people than we've seen from some humans recently.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Yes, that's interesting amd a more glaring omission than the more subtle fact that we've advocated a choice from the start. It's not surprising though. I imagine we're not as easy to attack as the strawwomen offered up in our places.

Yes, they are indeed the fringe because I haven't (thankfully!) encountered people with the same beliefs and warped value system as they have. I mean how can you even argue ANY kind of moral high ground and then practically in the same breath call women dogs, idiots, s1uts, and the like? Just Levon's tone is enough to give people a picture of the type of belligerent personality he possesses. I'm grateful that in his household, it is his wife that is raising their children. She cannot possibly be that way too, right? At least she might teach them a different level of discourse. :-x

I agree with you though. If Armenian culture became Levon's ideal and to a slightly lesser extent Mos's (Mos is actually not quite as extreme in some other views, for instance women in govt. and leadership roles if I recall correctly), I would distance and disassociate too.

I would prefer the company of your dog as well. I'm sure it displays more respect for people than we've seen from some humans recently.

I've never been fringe. My views reflect the protecting of the family unit and our traditional values in Armenian society, rather than the take-over/dominance of ultra-left cultural ideals such as feminism and the destruction of the family unit that has taken place to a large extent in the West. We have a conservative, Christian society and I want that to be maintained and respected. As for women, in leadership roles. I wouldn't be comfortable with a woman president or military commander or FM, but there's a woman currently as minister of cultural affairs, and I think that can suit a woman.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Mos, let me try this hypo. If the woman worked prior and found fulfillment in her career, but upon the arrival of children she and her husband decided that it made most sense for their circumstances for her to stay at home with the young children. Soon thereafter, although she is enjoying raising her children, she finds that she doesn't find the same level of fulfillment or contentment in her life as before. Would it be acceptable for her to find something to do (either for pay or not) to help her feel more content and fulfilled?

What if the children are still young and need care, but she can have a family member provide some care or there's a quality day care option available that would free up just a few hours a day for her? Would this be okay?

What if the children are school-aged and she can work it out so that she can work during those hours? Is that acceptable or should she be at home even when the children are not?

What about after the children are grown? The youngest one's > 16? Or the youngest is > 18?

What about if she works prior to marriage, then gets married, but does not have children yet. Is it acceptable for her to work then?

In other words, are there any circumstances under which you could get behind the woman choosing to work? Is it ever okay?

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Mos, let me try this hypo. If the woman worked prior and found fulfillment in her career, but upon the arrival of children she and her husband decided that it made most sense for their circumstances for her to stay at home with the young children. Soon thereafter, although she is enjoying raising her children, she finds that she doesn't find the same level of fulfillment or contentment in her life as before. Would it be acceptable for her to find something to do (either for pay or not) to help her feel more content and fulfilled?

What if the children are still young and need care, but she can have a family member provide some care or there's a quality day care option available that would free up just a few hours a day for her? Would this be okay?

What if the children are school-aged and she can work it out so that she can work during those hours? Is that acceptable or should she be at home even when the children are not?

In other words, are there any circumstances under which you could get behind the woman choosing to work? Is it ever okay?

Obviously there are circumstances where women has to work if the family needs it for financial reasons. However, if it's not needed and it's only for the woman's "fullfillment" then yes woman should tend to her kids and keep up the house. If she has time, she can do hobbies on the side and only when the duties of the home life allow her do I think she can switch to also working. When you have kids you have a duty to care for them and raise them till they reach a mature age.

Obviously there are chores related with kids (laundry, cooking, cleaning house) so taking care of kids is more often than not a full-time job, so it's very hard to work and do that homework at the same time and do a great job at both. Women can pursue their hobbies/job before marriage, but sooner or later they should marry and settle down with a family, and preferably not at a late age.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Obviously there are circumstances where women has to work if the family needs it for financial reasons. However, if it's not needed and it's only for the woman's "fullfillment" then yes woman should tend to her kids and keep up the house. If she has time, she can do hobbies on the side and only when the duties of the home life allow her do I think she can switch to also working. When you have kids you have a duty to care for them and raise them till they reach a mature age.

Obviously there are chores related with kids (laundry, cooking, cleaning house) so taking care of kids is more often than not a full-time job, so it's very hard to work and do that homework at the same time and do a great job at both. Women can pursue their hobbies/job before marriage, but sooner or later they should marry and settle down with a family, and preferably not at a late age.

Why does her fulfillment and happiness not count?

Okay, so if it is difficult to provide for the family's needs on one income, that it's okay for the women to work at least part-time?


What if the woman earns more money than the man? Does that complicate things in your eyes?

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Why does her fulfillment and happiness not count?

Okay, so if it is difficult to provide for the family's needs on one income, that it's okay for the women to work at least part-time?


What if the woman earns more money than the man? Does that complicate things in your eyes?

Is raising children and holding up the family not bring happiness?? God one must be bitter to not get happiness from being around your kids and raising them....

Well, if yes family is struggling financially, then the next logical step is woman to do some part-time work, of course it's not encouraged when one has small kids....

Even if woman makes more, that shouldn't rid her of her responsibility in raising her kids, taking care of her husband, and holding up the house. Family first.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Is raising children and holding up the family not bring happiness?? God one must be bitter to not get happiness from being around your kids and raising them....

Well, if yes family is struggling financially, then the next logical step is woman to do some part-time work, of course it's not encouraged when one has small kids....

Even if woman makes more, that shouldn't rid her of her responsibility in raising her kids, taking care of her husband, and holding up the house. Family first.

It's tempting to judge, isn't it? I don't think it's that they don't life to be home and don't enjoy raising their children, but that they would like more than that. They're capable of much more and they feel like their full potential isn't being reached.


What if the man's income alone isn't enough, but the woman's income only is enough to sustain the family. Who leaves their job?

Also, when you say "it doesn't rid her of the responsibility" I don't get the sense that you're buying into the "there is no greater joy" stuff you're peddling.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

I think some of the Native American tribes had the right idea. The children of each generation were raised by the maternal grandparents, while both parents went out to hunt or garden or farm, or do whatever work was needed by the community. The children were raised by the maternal grandparents because it was a matrilineally and matrilocally organized culture. The husband joined the wife's family, but there's was no specific hierarchy of men, and honor was bestowed based upon merit, that is, to whoever did most for the community. Decisions were made through consultation, etc... There was no sense of ownership, and each contributed according to his or her ability. I think extended family homes could be sustainable if they followed this sort of pattern.

It was important that the children be cared for by the maternal grandparents because, and anthropologists have observed and written about this extensively, the mother-daughter bond is a much stronger one than the in-law bond, and maternal grandparents are generally warmer and more generous with their daughters's children. I believe that Armenians' insistence on a patrilocal pattern is due to a large extent on the importance of claiming children for the patriline, but also to separate women from their families and their source of emotional and actual support.

For Armenians, a man going to live closer to his wife's family is experienced as profoundly emasculating.

Also, the notion that an Armenian woman would open up to someone about her marital problems is so threatening that it is placed under the control of "shame", amot. But if a woman has concerns and her husband isn't particularly easy to talk to or negotiate with, what is she to do? Also, one can choose well, but people change. Marriage and parenting are stressful life transitions, and they tend to bring out the best and worst in people. What is a woman to do if her husband becomes abusive after marriage?

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

It's tempting to judge, isn't it? I don't think it's that they don't life to be home and don't enjoy raising their children, but that they would like more than that. They're capable of much more and they feel like their full potential isn't being reached.


What if the man's income alone isn't enough, but the woman's income only is enough to sustain the family. Who leaves their job?

Also, when you say "it doesn't rid her of the responsibility" I don't get the sense that you're buying into the "there is no greater joy" stuff you're peddling.

They can reach their full potential when they aren't bearing kids. So if they work before marriage or do somethings after kids mature. During child raising time, their full potential should be dedicated to the kids.

If man's income isn't able to support the family, then yes woman has to work, there's no choice. Of course not an ideal situation, esp with kids.

I don't think that phrase really defeated what I was saying. Yes you get a great joy out of it, but it's also a very important responsibility.

For Armenians, a man going to live closer to his wife's family is experienced as profoundly emasculating.

Also, the notion that an Armenian woman would open up to someone about her marital problems is so threatening that it is placed under the control of "shame", amot. But if a woman has concerns and her husband isn't particularly easy to talk to or negotiate with, what is she to do? Also, one can choose well, but people change. Marriage and parenting are stressful life transitions, and they tend to bring out the best and worst in people. What is a woman to do if her husband becomes abusive after marriage?

Again, 'sex life' discussion is out of the question. If she has medical problesm she can see a doctor, not gossip to the next neighbour or particularly a stranger. Abuse depends on the reasons. If woman cheats for example she deserves the abuse and deserves to be thrown out of the house, no exceptions. If she starts the fight or curses the man she shouldn't be surprised if husband becomes abusive. Though I think marital relations should be kept within the family, not exposed so world knows. It's your family, keep it in your family.

[hrai]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

I've been dipping in and out of this thread for a week or so without making any comments.
I consider myself to be more traditional/old fashioned than most but honestly, some of the posts have made me check my calendar to see if it really is 2012.

Is raising children and holding up the family not bring happiness?? God one must be bitter to not get happiness from being around your kids and raising them....

surely raising the children and holding the family together brings the greatest possible happiness to both mother and father? parenthood is not usually a sole role, it's a partnership where everything is shared.

Well, if yes family is struggling financially, then the next logical step is woman to do some part-time work, of course it's not encouraged when one has small kids....

How would you define "struggling financially"? My family want those three vacations in the Med each year, want to give our children the widest experience possible of different countries. We want 2 new cars every second year, we want every consumer product available. So both parents work, we juggle our diaries and easily manage. Our children always leave the house in the morning with at least one parent there and return after school with , again, at least one parent there.
Or are we guilty of rampant consumerism? Where would you draw your line as to when it's acceptable for both parents to work? It's becoming more and more common for people to work from home, the convenience for the employee and the cost-savings for employers are very attractive, in fact I work from home and can do some chores during my "working day". I "slave" over the laundry, throw the clothes in the machine and sometime later they're done, not exactly taking them down to the river to beat them on rocks is it?

Even if woman makes more, that shouldn't rid her of her responsibility in raising her kids, taking care of her husband, and holding up the house. Family first.

My wife sometimes makes more in a year than I do, sometimes I make more but that's not the point is it? When I decided I was ready for parenthood just when did my responsibility for raising my children end? Two parents to share the responsibilities, to the share the tears, to share the joy and laughter, to share the pride, to share the love.
My wife takes care of me but I also make sure that I take care of her, it's a partnership, a tag-team. We interlock and her strengths compensate my weaknesses and vice versa.

Mos, I don't know if you're single, married, divorced or what, but if the views you've posted in this thread are your real opinions I think you'll spend a lot of your life alone. That would be a shame.