Armenian lesbians/gays

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Maybe it's time we were eaten alive, then.

Well you just proved my point. Also something must have happened in your life to make you think this way and why you generalize all man into the same basket. Its all about you and only you....very selfish if you ask me.

Armenian identity and culture didn't survive for millennia because they followed group-think and monolithic one-size-fits-all ideologies. In fact, diversity is what enabled some people who identified themselves as "Armenian" to survive and preserve their identity (which evolved and continues to do so) according to what the times and conditions presented. Now, all of a sudden, there's this panicked urge to make everybody think and do the same thing.

Nothing has changed when it comes to preserving Armenian culture and values. There is no all of the sudden force to make everyone the same, where did you get that. Armenians have always been conservative Christians and majority still are.

That's what's happening in North Korea, and look how far it's gotten them. They have no culture, no room for creativity, and a government propaganda machine that dictates every detail of their lives. I'd hate for Armenia to end up like that. I'd prefer no Armenia than one that's a hell hole where no one can have a free thought and express it without fear.

Wrong example. Both are worlds apart. Armenian government does not advocate any specific life style.....it is the Armenian people so your example is worthless lady.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Something has happened in my life? Of course! Something happens in everyone's life. I'm certain many things have happened in your life, also, to make you the way you are. If I choose to write in the first person, it is because I am well aware that I am expressing my personal opinion rather than insisting that there is only one way. That's the piece that you guys who are blowing the horn of "Armenia has always been a conservative Christian culture" don't seem to be getting. There has always been a plurality of opinions and lifestyles among Armenians, and it's in the nation's best interest that diversity of opinions and lifestyles be supported and preserved. You get to live according to your conservative, Christian ideas. I get to live according to my liberal, global, agnostic ideas. And we both get to say we're Armenian. So do all the other Armenians in the world who feel and express their belonging in their own way. What you don't get to do is to say that it is and has always been one way, and that's your way, and any disagreement or any rejection of any part of the whole package is demonized. You don't get to claim authority because of your own beliefs in the supremacy of your gender. You don't get any additional privilege because you practice Christianity as interpreted by the Armenian church fathers. You can delude yourself into believing "Armenia #1", but just realize that everyone else believes they are #1 also.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

I'm sure everyone will find this amusing:

http://www.upworthy.com/the-top-8-ways-to-be-traditionally-married-according-to-the-bible?c=la2

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Kim Jong Il spoke those same words: "Just protecting the fundamental core of a society."

For your information, the Diaspora has always preserved Armenian culture. It was the Mxitarist monks in Venice and Vienna who preserved and perfected Classical Armenian language and texts. They were the ones who saved manuscripts from perishing.
Armenian culture is almost synonymous with Diaspora. You may not like it, but there is nothing about an Armenian from the former USSR that makes him or her any more authentic in his Armenianness than an Armenian from New York City. Armenians were merchants and middlemen in international trade long before the Americas were discovered and colonized. Where there are merchants and middlemen, there are diasporan communities.

Also, in biology, males are usually the "marked" sex. They are the ones who have to do more or look like they are doing more to secure mates and to pass on their genes. Because our species has evolved past the point where brute force is what secures our survival, we can no longer accept the argument that males are the dominant sex. What secures the survival of our species is: intelligence, adaptability, diversification. If you want to make the biological argument, then the best thing we can do for ourselves as a biological community is to bring in fresh genes... i.e. marry non-Armenians, marry people who are as different from us as possible.

The biological-social argument is a failure. But there's something to the idea of men being the "marked" ones, the ones who have the elaborate feathers and do the fancy dancing in order to attract and impregnate females. Armenian men do this is a number of ways: machismo, fancy cars, throwing money around, ordering people around who they feel they're better than, be it their sisters, mothers, younger brothers, etc...

White Genocide is a construct and a situational device that has been overused to make some people fall in line by causing guilt and a sense of unending obligation. It's no way to run a family, or a nation.

No, Kim Jong Il was intent on preserving some fantasy communist economic ideals/society. Again, I never said government has to intervene to force people. So your comparison fails.

Yes Diaspora has preserved our culture to a good degree, and that's good, but we should still be even more alert today with the forces of globalisation that have sped up assimilation so much. We need to be insular and protective of our culture and identity.

Males are still the dominant sex. It takes a while to rid a biological fact. Evolution is very slow. So in human years, very very slow. Hence, men should be respected in that position. Men lead, Men protect, provide, and take more risks. This is all part of the nature. Women have their own significant role in society. Breaking these constructs to fit a politicised ideology is plain wrong. If you want a society where homosexually is rampant, promiscuity, dysfunctional families, etc. then have society fully adopt all these western ideals..see how you like it.

yes, people who assimilated and lose/forget their culture should feel ashamed and guilty.

Whilst the west manufacturers these insidious, brainwashed, neo-liberal, lemmings on a revolving assembly line. It's also used as a dumping ground for other peoples misfits.

Armenia does not need become autocratic or repressive in order to ward off subversive elements. However Armenia's demographics and external threats are such that it must at least for now remain a fortress state.

Demographic problem is very real. We need to get on top of it. Restrict emigration, promote immigration to Armenia, and most importantly provide big financial incentives for having children. And get rid of abortion and tax heavily/restrict birth control. Western liberals get their way, Armenia will be done in 20 years

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As for patriotism, one's allegiance lies first and foremost to oneself. Understanding and loving one's heritage is part of that, but groups are something we subscribe to to feel needed; people love to be shackled even as they cry out for freedom.

What does allegiance to oneself mean?? Allegiance should be firstly to Armenian nation.

[ADandelion]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

By allegiance to oneself, I mean that the individual is to be placed at the forefront of any group. Placing the individual before the group means giving them the right to choose their priorities. My personal belief if that the interest of the individual takes precedence over the interest of the collective, the purpose of the collective, or a nation if you will, is a way of preserving and enhancing the lives of the individuals it contains. The nation's existence is not an end to itself; it exists solely to serve its people.

Patriotism is the allegiance to one's nation. Armenia's past has led its people to be scattered across much of the world, and as a result Armenians have formed their own regional communities where they would otherwise be uprooted and alienated. Those communities exist becasue the people find them to be beneficial, not because they feel a motivation to preserve that community out of a sense of loyalty, and compromise their own position for the purpose of maintaining that collective.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

By allegiance to oneself, I mean that the individual is to be placed at the forefront of any group. Placing the individual before the group means giving them the right to choose their priorities. My personal belief if that the interest of the individual takes precedence over the interest of the collective, the purpose of the collective, or a nation if you will, is a way of preserving and enhancing the lives of the individuals it contains. The nation's existence is not an end to itself; it exists solely to serve its people.

Patriotism is the allegiance to one's nation. Armenia's past has led its people to be scattered across much of the world, and as a result Armenians have formed their own regional communities where they would otherwise be uprooted and alienated. Those communities exist becasue the people find them to be beneficial, not because they feel a motivation to preserve that community out of a sense of loyalty, and compromise their own position for the purpose of maintaining that collective.

Exactly. Humans will sustain behaviors and interactions that are beneficial to the individual. Those that are not beneficial will fade. Therefore, if "being Armenian" is not perceived to be beneficial to the individual, it will not be sustained. Being Armenian in a particular way, the way that Mos and others describe, is beneficial for only a narrow portion of those who consider themselves Armenian. They wish to convince others that this is "the" way, when in fact, it is just one way, and a way that helps them to feel good and secure in the world.

"Allegiance to the Armenian nation" is a metaphor for all those things that work for men who are profoundly threatened by the fact that those things that give them a sense of privilege and supremacy are no longer relevant in real time. You can't stuff a cat back in a bag.

I give the example of North Korea as an extreme case scenario. Perhaps Taliban Afghanistan is a better example of what happens when some people feel they are ordained to run the world by their narrow ideology.

Extremists always focus on women and on robbing women of their rights. Regardless of religion or culture. It always boils down to the same thing.

The other thing is, in order to increase population, you have to decrease education, especially for women. The more educated a population is, the fewer children they are likely to have.

As for Armenia to be gone in 20 years, it is probably inevitable.

[retro]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

There has always been a plurality of opinions and lifestyles among Armenians, and it's in the nation's best interest that diversity of opinions and lifestyles be supported and preserved. You get to live according to your conservative, Christian ideas. I get to live according to my liberal, global, agnostic ideas. And we both get to say we're Armenian.

Armenia was patriarchal long before it adopted Christianity. You don't live in Armenia and Western Asia isn't California.

While the culture of the region in many respects may leave a lot to be desired. Armenia's "gender equality issues" are about the least pressing of it's concerns.

[retro]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Demographic problem is very real. We need to get on top of it. Restrict emigration, promote immigration to Armenia, and most importantly provide big financial incentives for having children. And get rid of abortion and tax heavily/restrict birth control. Western liberals get their way, Armenia will be done in 20 years.

Armenian women really need to be married off at as early an age as possible and young Armenian men actively encouraged to sire far more children. Restricting emigration is pretty much a impossible task. However birth control and abortion, should be restricted to medical cases, rapes etc. All of which can be done on religious grounds.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Armenia was patriarchal long before it adopted Christianity. You don't live in Armenia and Western Asia isn't California.

While the culture of the region in many respects may leave a lot to be desired. Armenia's "gender equality issues" are about the least pressing of it's concerns.

Right. I don't live in Armenia. I don't live in California, either. And I agree that Christianity would not have taken hold in Armenia had its culture not been patriarchal and mono-theistic in its leanings. But monotheism had its own perks for strongly patriarchal cultures. It meant that tribute, resources, deference, flowed up through the ranks toward the male elders of tribal groups.

My sense is that women's issues are pretty important. When you have news that women are being beaten to death by their husbands, when girls are being selectively aborted, when young girls are being sold into slavery and prostitution by their own families, these are the things that set the tone for the inclusion -or not- of Armenia into the world community. And since Armenia needs to participate in global community, needs assistance and aid, needs to show that it is a progressive, democratic country. When you take yourself in a different direction, acting like the rest of the world is there to dilute your culture and ethics, when you brainwash people into thinking their way of life is wonderful, despite the fact that, subjectively and objectively, that is not the case, you move in the direction of North Korea. When you have serious economic issues and a tribally-oriented culture, you end up looking like Afghanistan.

As a woman, why should I have to subordinate myself to a man, or men, or anyone who doesn't have the level of education and productive potential that I have? And why should my father be the one to decide what the course of my life is?

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Armenian women really need to be married off at as early an age as possible and young Armenian men actively encouraged to sire far more children. Restricting emigration is pretty much a impossible task. However birth control and abortion, should be restricted to medical cases, rapes etc. All of which can be done on religious grounds.

And, given that the economy is in such terrible state, there's rampant unemployment, many families outside of Yerevan are struggling for basic needs, how are the "more children" going to be fed, clothed, educated, given access to medical care, etc...? Are we going to go back to a tribal, agricultural or herding culture? Is that the Armenia you want? A country full of people who have more in common with xxxxroaches than with humans?