Հայոց ճակատագիր

[tunot]

Re: notes / comments

First things first. Get rid of the corrupt government. Secondly: stop feeding the maffia and start feeding the people. The process is going too, too slow. In fifteen years since independence, most ten-member families should not be living in delapitated, Soviet-style, two-room apartments, with regular water-cuts and black-outs.

[Anonymouse]

Re: notes / comments

I'm sorry, I haven't read your entire speech, since I kind of stopped after you said that politics should not be of our concern since we can't change it anyway. Defeatist? Not only that. How can you move back to an Armenia and raise your kids when it is economically and politically a complete mess? When tens of thousands are lined up to get the hell out? First things first. We need to create an environment that is welcoming to us diasporans. As long as that is not the case, you can call yourself a martyr, but you won't see many following in your footsteps.

How do you "create an environment" that is welcoming by pouring more and more of our energies into the nature of politics which only robs? If you had actually read my "speech" may be you would seen the response to your above hokum. And unlike you and Ara, I do not care nor want for any Armenian following me. Let them become self-reliant Armenians and that will be more than enough for everyone.

WRONG! We have always been on the verge of extinction, ever since we were conceived. If it is true that we are xenophiles, we must have very good reasons for it, namely, that our culture is worthless and useless to us. Make the culture more attractive and important, and next thing you know, you might have practically the entire world findings its ancestral roots in Armenians. There you have your big, expanded nation.

That is a matter of relativity. The fact of the matter is that whether or not we were or have been on the verge of extinction, at any time pales in comparison to now. Minus the genocide, you cannot use wars or occupations as evidence for even then, while under Islam for example, the millet had Armenians living under a different strand. Today's endangered status is more subtle and more dangerous than ever before due to the ever increasing 'open effect' in which multicultural societies not only break old distinctions and divisions, but have no regard for them and almost force the melange of different peoples and cultures.

[Anonymouse]

Re: notes / comments

First things first. Get rid of the corrupt government. Secondly: stop feeding the maffia and start feeding the people. The process is going too, too slow. In fifteen years since independence, most ten-member families should not be living in delapitated, Soviet-style, two-room apartments, with regular water-cuts and black-outs.

You want to stop the government and the mafia from fiending off its people? Arm every citizen and extremely reduce the size of government.

[tunot]

Re: notes / comments

How do you "create an environment" that is welcoming by pouring more and more of our energies into the nature of politics which only robs? If you had actually read my "speech" may be you would seen the response to your above hokum. And unlike you and Ara, I do not care nor want for any Armenian following me. Let them become self-reliant Armenians and that will be more than enough for everyone.

If each of us is self-reliant, then we will definitely stop existing. We need a self-reliant government, yes. A government that does not constantly depend on the governments of others, yes. Whether you like politics or not, it is what any country needs in order to survive. If you hate our politics so much, which I would never blame you for, then do something about it! You are going to study law and become a lawyer. Why don't you apply that knowledge to the Armenian judicial system? It's in high need of it. Simply moving there and having kids is not going to help or change the situation!

That is a matter of relativity. The fact of the matter is that whether or not we were or have been on the verge of extinction, at any time pales in comparison to now. Minus the genocide, you cannot use wars or occupations as evidence for even then, while under Islam for example, the millet had Armenians living under a different strand. Today's endangered status is more subtle and more dangerous than ever before due to the ever increasing 'open effect' in which multicultural societies not only break old distinctions and divisions, but have no regard for them and almost force the melange of different peoples and cultures.

That's simply not true. Armenians have moved about ever since they were conceived, have mixed and have mingled wherever they went. We are in no more danger now than we were 500 years ago, than we were 2000 years ago. We've always been a small and dependent nation. Always. Even under Tigranes the Great, we were worthless. You should know this.

[tunot]

Re: notes / comments

You want to stop the government and the mafia from fiending off its people? Arm every citizen and extremely reduce the size of government.

I don't care HOW it's done, as long as it is done! If that's your only solution, then so be it. Let's do it and get it over with. If you can come up with a slightly more peaceful solution, by all means.

[jgk3]

Re: notes / comments

please delete or move this argument when it's over :P

[Siggie]

Re: notes / comments

please delete or move this argument when it's over :P

Actually, yes. I was going to request the same before getting to the end. Moogig, I haven't read all of this, so I'm not gonna do it myself. Please move as many of the posts that would make up a single topic (that includes the morst recent post) and create a new thread with them please.

[arabaliozian]

Re: notes / comments

about our culture being worthless:
there is some truth in it: three of the most important ideas that have shaped our character and for which we have shed our blood came to us from abroad: christianity, nationalism, and Marxism. / ara

[Anonymouse]

If each of us is self-reliant, then we will definitely stop existing. We need a self-reliant government, yes. A government that does not constantly depend on the governments of others, yes. Whether you like politics or not, it is what any country needs in order to survive. If you hate our politics so much, which I would never blame you for, then do something about it! You are going to study law and become a lawyer. Why don't you apply that knowledge to the Armenian judicial system? It's in high need of it. Simply moving there and having kids is not going to help or change the situation!

Apparently you do not understand that politics and government can never be made to work 'for the people' because as institutions they will always morph to support their austere existence. Haven't you read any of the classical liberals or some political philosophy? If anything, the answer is less government and less laws, not more like you like to believe. Ever since Bolshevism Armenia has suffered from more government and more corruption, not less.

That's simply not true. Armenians have moved about ever since they were conceived, have mixed and have mingled wherever they went. We are in no more danger now than we were 500 years ago, than we were 2000 years ago. We've always been a small and dependent nation. Always. Even under Tigranes the Great, we were worthless. You should know this.

That is untrue. You can believe Armenians have always been on the verge of extinction just like you can believe Joe has an invisible monkey on his shoulder. That doesn't make it necessarily true. If it is what you like to believe despite all else, that is your prerogative. This isn't about mingling or moving. Such things have always existed and for every and any people. This is about a different matter which you are ignorant of and never will care about. Never have, not only Armenians, but other people, faced the cultural conditions that they face today with the racial and cultural nihilism ushered in by modernity. Your opinions of us being worthless are entirely your own. I would expect a Turk to come in here to make such statements, but you take the cake with your nihilistic and cynical outlook. I repeat, just what is it that your share is that you are doing?

about our culture being worthless:
there is some truth in it: three of the most important ideas that have shaped our character and for which we have shed our blood came to us from abroad: christianity, nationalism, and Marxism. / ara

Your 'worthless' comment is interesting. I wouldn't expect tunot's opinions to be far from yours as a cheerleader always stands by her team.

As far as nationalism, the right to survival and preserving one's nation is a natural right. If one believes and takes pride in ones nation over others, does that make him a nationalist? If one seeks the preservation of ones nation does that make him a nationalist? Why do closed minds use only the vile examples of genocides and persecutions by one nation or another as an example to fault all motives of nation preserving? Ironically, those like you who believe nationalism to be a foreign force to influence Armenians do not realize that it is Marxists and cultural leftists who believe in such things, who believe that there were no nations until Europeans ushered in nationalism, thereby 'injecting' into our minds the concept of 'nations'. Such thinking presupposes that people suffer from a false consciousness of sorts.

[tunot]

Re: ????? ?????????

For your information: Ara only reads his own thread, and thus only replies there. I actually don't see why anything needed to be removed.

Regardless.

So you're saying we should live by anarchy? That we should have no government? Or that we cannot create the first government ever that actually cares about its people, rather than itself? Are we then like everyone else? Why not mix then and forget about culture, since it's like everyone else's anyway?

You keep accusing me of defeatism, but you have here shown that it is in fact you who is a defeatist, especially as a future lawyer, since it is the law that might ensure that we keep our leaders in check.

Clearly some countries are doing better than us. Much better, in fact. Otherwise we wouldn't be living in their countries.

As for Armenians being on the verge of extinction, you have to be truly uneducated about your Armenian history to think that we have ever been a significant country or nation. We've been around for over 3000 years, for your info. Only 6 million of us today? That is if we include the likes of Princess Diana and Cher. Otherwise, we might as well barely reach 1 million. All that because one part of us lives in evil Western countries that wish to melt us in their pot and because we are xenophiles by nature? This is why I can't take you seriously. Neither you, nor your solutions.