The Ottomans

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

I have long posed and contemplated that question.



Precisely, which is why now with Azeris Armenians will mend history.

Tatars terrorized Russia for hundreds of years but eventually Russians organized themselves and counterattacked, taking the Tatar khanates in Kazan, Astrakhan and Crimea, putting an end to the slavery. They did it by themselves without any outside help.

It shows that if people really want to end foreign rule, they can, provided they have faith and are prepared to sacrifice themselves

[Anonymouse]

Re: The Ottomans

The relationship say in the 18th century was probably far from ideal , but still probably through wealthy Armenians in Istanbul , Armenians in the interior provinces could have some of their grievances addressed by the Sultan.

An important historical question (which also has a bearing into the 20th century ): why did Armenians allow themselves to become a conquered nation? how did infighting contribute to the collapse of the Armenian state in 1375?

I have long posed and contemplated that question.

The Ottomans might have been cruel unless you allowed them to control your destiny. If cruelty is bad, submission to cruelty is not something to be proud of

Precisely, which is why now with Azeris Armenians will mend history.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

Whether or not Armenians were on good terms with Turks prior to the late 19th and early 20th century is irrelevant.

To the extent that it is part of history - and in order to understand the past, we will have to examine these relations - then we could understand the relevance of good relations among the two. As a purely contextual matter, relative only to that time frame, it's worth noting that Armenians had good relations with Turks. However, history is not static and it is not a point in time. It is always in flux and changing.

If we further delve into historical inquiries, one cannot help but ask, "What happened to this relationship?" The answer to this question leads us to the present situation.

To the extent that this relationship went down hill when Turks started to badger the Armenian population, it is irrelevant. In the context of things, the good relations of ages past pale in comparison to the treatment Armenians received in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

The relationship say in the 18th century was probably far from ideal , but still probably through wealthy Armenians in Istanbul , Armenians in the interior provinces could have some of their grievances addressed by the Sultan.

An important historical question (which also has a bearing into the 20th century ): why did Armenians allow themselves to become a conquered nation? how did infighting contribute to the collapse of the Armenian state in 1375?

The Ottomans might have been cruel unless you allowed them to control your destiny. If cruelty is bad, submission to cruelty is not something to be proud of

[Virgil]

Re: The Ottomans

To the extent that this relationship went down hill when Turks started to badger the Armenian population, it is irrelevant.

Just to clarify something, "badger" is a very kind word, more like sadistically torture. I don't know if you have read General Andranik's biography, but in it you find out why he fought for Armenians. Example, they use to take Armenian children, tie them to trees and peal their skin for fun.

[Anonymouse]

Re: The Ottomans

This thread is about Ottoman and Armenian history. My point is that today the Ottomans are seen as perpetrators of genocide and the destroyers of Armenian civilization in Anatolia.
But 200 or 300 years ago Armenians might have seen the Ottomans differently. Not necessarily positively, but also not as negatively as today. Remember at the peak of their power the Ottomans were landing troops on the Italian peninsula. It is even possible that some Armenians in the empire were proud of the Ottomans. Human beings become attracted to those who are powerful or successful
As for today, yes Turkey has been violating rights of ethnic communities. And Tibet deserves to have real autonomy. But this thread is about history.

Whether or not Armenians were on good terms with Turks prior to the late 19th and early 20th century is irrelevant.

To the extent that it is part of history - and in order to understand the past, we will have to examine these relations - then we could understand the relevance of good relations among the two. As a purely contextual matter, relative only to that time frame, it's worth noting that Armenians had good relations with Turks. However, history is not static and it is not a point in time. It is always in flux and changing.

If we further delve into historical inquiries, one cannot help but ask, "What happened to this relationship?" The answer to this question leads us to the present situation.

To the extent that this relationship went down hill when Turks started to badger the Armenian population, it is irrelevant. In the context of things, the good relations of ages past pale in comparison to the treatment Armenians received in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

[Artandsky]

Re: The Ottomans

This thread is about Ottoman and Armenian history. My point is that today the Ottomans are seen as perpetrators of genocide and the destroyers of Armenian civilization in Anatolia.
But 200 or 300 years ago Armenians might have seen the Ottomans differently. Not necessarily positively, but also not as negatively as today. Remember at the peak of their power the Ottomans were landing troops on the Italian peninsula. It is even possible that some Armenians in the empire were proud of the Ottomans. Human beings become attracted to those who are powerful or successful
As for today, yes Turkey has been violating rights of ethnic communities. And Tibet deserves to have real autonomy. But this thread is about history.

History is a relative thing! Usually written by winers, twisted in a way to make it attractive and convenient for the present day, darkest/ugliest parts are usually omitted.

What you say is possible. The same thing could be said about Armenians of Russia, USA, France etc.
so what is the point of this “historical investigation”? Would it be like “we could be still together if 1915 wouldn't happened?

These are useless talks IMO. It is simply irrelevant in current Armenian/Turk relation. We could talk about similar subject with those nations I've mentioned above, but not with yours. First thing we have to resolve Q of 1915 and occupied territories.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

To lampron
I just do not understand, what is your deal about Armenians being good or bad about Ottomans?
Try to understand the simple thing, it is a natural desire for a self respecting nation to seek its Independence, no matter how good were Ottomans for Armenians it is about freedom and dignity.
Do you consider your subjects as sheep's? Who do you think you nation was to had a right to control the destiny of other nations? Stop this bull sheet!
I really hate this worldwide Hippocratic mindset. From one side a nation has a right for self determination and from the other....
Well f..k Turkey trying to suppress Kurds
f..k GB trying to suppress Zimbabwe
f..k China for Tebet
f..k USA for IRAK and Mideastern
f..k Russia for Chechnya
f..k all those who are trying suppress weaker!

This thread is about Ottoman and Armenian history. My point is that today the Ottomans are seen as perpetrators of genocide and the destroyers of Armenian civilization in Anatolia.
But 200 or 300 years ago Armenians might have seen the Ottomans differently. Not necessarily positively, but also not as negatively as today. Remember at the peak of their power the Ottomans were landing troops on the Italian peninsula. It is even possible that some Armenians in the empire were proud of the Ottomans. Human beings become attracted to those who are powerful or successful
As for today, yes Turkey has been violating rights of ethnic communities. And Tibet deserves to have real autonomy. But this thread is about history.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: The Ottomans

Well I'm actually glad that I misunderstood you. But you have to understand that when you speak vaguely then it becomes easy to misunderstand your statements.

lets think why the armenians had to pay 1,5 million ransom ....have we betrayed our church,our christian belif.... we misuse THE GIVEN DIVINE power that GOD gave us ,and colobrate with EVIL TO get off with a whole skin...because it was easy......"

Please get real. Armenians had several successful states (and an empire) before Christianity even existed. Again, lets stick to real events instead of theorizing about the unknown.

but Iam stating that the sins will be punished .....blood will be paid by blood....

Yes, the perpetrators and deniers of the genocide will pay.

[Artandsky]

Re: The Ottomans

To lampron
I just do not understand, what is your deal about Armenians being good or bad about Ottomans?
Try to understand the simple thing, it is a natural desire for a self respecting nation to seek its Independence, no matter how good were Ottomans for Armenians it is about freedom and dignity.
Do you consider your subjects as sheep's? Who do you think you nation was to had a right to control the destiny of other nations? Stop this bull sheet!
I really hate this worldwide Hippocratic mindset. From one side a nation has a right for self determination and from the other....
Well f..k Turkey trying to suppress Kurds
f..k GB trying to suppress Zimbabwe
f..k China for Tebet
f..k USA for IRAK and Mideastern
f..k Russia for Chechnya
f..k all those who are trying suppress weaker!

[ArmSurvival]

Re: The Ottomans

you make errors you commit sins you will be punished ....you help people unrequitedly you will rewarded....havent you experienced yet !!!...it applies to human and nations.....all they PAY IT FINALLY, dont coment on it

What you said is just a theory. There are millions of examples of horrible people who did not pay for any of their crimes. The fact that politicians and businessmen rule the world already says a lot about this theory.

it couldnt be pure coincedence ...it doesnt make any sense your statment

I never said anything about coincidence... you obviously didn't understand my statement.

you make errors you commit sins you will be punished

So you're trying to say that Armenians did something to "deserve" the genocide. Again, you are justifying what the Turks have done and are throwing the blame on Armenians. Regressive, uninformed, borderline treasonous; there are a hundred negative ways to sum up your line of thinking.

It doesn't mean that Armenians shouldn't recognize their mistakes when they commit them, but to say that the Turks were justified, and justified by divine right, to commit genocide against us, is as regressive an idea as I have seen.