Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Armenian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I understand how this would help address the security issue for Armenia, but what guarentee would we have of financial prosperity or a rise out of obscurity?

When you are part of a large nation that controls immense amounts of natural wealth and possesses one of the most powerful armed forces in the world you almost automatically gain prosperity and rise out of obscurity. Armenians today are competing against each other over the woefully scarce resources of the Armenian republic. Armenians by nature operate best in a thriving market. Russia is today and will be for the foreseeable future a thriving market. By being in a union with them our people's natural talents can be expressed properly. We saw a similar situation during Soviet times when Armenians used the Soviet apparatus to reach great heights. Our tiny, landlocked, poor Armenia simply cannot not provide the ever-ambitious Armenian mindset opportunities for greatness.

If anything such a union would remove Armenia from the world stage as an independent state.

Put aside your emotions for a moment. Do you really think we have an independent state? And what good has our appearance on the world stage as an independent state has done for us?

Since, Armenia's physical location would not change we would still be land-locked and dependent on our neighbors for transit of goods from Russia.

We would theoretically have direct access and free movement in the Russian economy and would expect Moscow to safeguard it. With Armenia joined to Russia do you really think Georgia or Azerbaijan would dare to intervene in the transit of goods? As a matter of fact, the strategic north-south railway would be used to its full potential if Armenia joins in a union with Russia.

Additionally, would we not risk Russia deciding our borders without any direct say? Especially as it pertains to Artsak?

You are talking about a total subjugation of Armenia, I am talking about a 'union' of sorts with Russia. Also, what interest would Russia have in giving Armenian lands away if Armenians lands are benefiting it?

An additional concern should be further demographic decline in Armenia if all Armenians are Russian citizens and free to travel and work anywhere in Russia. Would this not create a situation where Armenia is even more insignificant then now?

I believe quite the opposite would occur. Armenians would flock back to Armenia if Armenia found political stability, peace and prosperity. We had a similar situation during Soviet times when Armenians were free to travel anywhere in the union, yet we never had a problem with migration.

My one and only concern is the 'survival' of the Armenian nation and its prosperity. If we can do it solo, that's great. If we have to do it with Russians, so be it...

[truAnatolian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Very valid point. However, it depends on how one packages The bottom line is, we Armenians need a strong presence in Russia, the Kremlin in particular, making the case for us. Instead of foolishly complaining about Russians and their control over us, we need to penetrate the different layers of their society for our benefit, we need to engage them on all levels.

Thats what the Zionists have done in the United States.

[Armenian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Thats what the Zionists have done in the United States.

Armenians have been doing that to some degree in Russia, but unfortunately our nation still has too many individuals like you...

[truAnatolian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Your an idiot.
Its the Armenians like me who find prominent and respectable professions and establish their place in their respective society that are acheiving the strategy you stated above.

Its people like you that create Anti-armenianism in others. Hostility brings Hostility. Its ok to be proud and nationalist but some people just have bigger mouths than brains, a trait which seems to be endemic to many armenians on this form

[gmd]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenian, I appreciate your response and respect the points you raise. Even if as you propose there is a union between a great power and a minor nation, then the interests of the minor nation will always be secondary (if considered at all). Obviously I would not disagree with a scenario where Armenia's survival is at risk. However, this would not be a marriage that could be left on Armenia's terms. The long term risks to Armenia could be a demographic and political shift within Russia.

I don't believe I am unnecessarily emotional on this subject. I was born in Soviet Armenia and although there was a certain degree of Russification it was not in my opinion in any way a greater threat to Armenian culture then living in the "west".

Ideally as much as I hate to say it, Armenia's best chance moving forward is to make peace with its immediate neighbors (not at any cost) and concentrate on strengthening its relationship with Russia. At least Armenia can develop certain niche markets that cater regionally and hopefully in a generation have enough revenue so that the majority are not surviving on remittences.

[Armenian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenian, I appreciate your response and respect the points you raise. Even if as you propose there is a union between a great power and a minor nation, then the interests of the minor nation will always be secondary (if considered at all). Obviously I would not disagree with a scenario where Armenia's survival is at risk. However, this would not be a marriage that could be left on Armenia's terms. The long term risks to Armenia could be a demographic and political shift within Russia.

I agree. However, Armenia today is in no position to call the shots in regional politics. Thus, a speculative union with Russia would not be much different with regards to Armenian political sentiments. If Russia already controls our economy and politics, why cant we at least be in a position where we can directly benefit from the Russian economy? Like I said, Armenians need a large market to thrive in. With a healthy economy Armenia will not have a migration problem.

I was born in Soviet Armenia and although there was a certain degree of Russification it was not in my opinion in any way a greater threat to Armenian culture then living in the "west".

Even with all its bad side effects, "Russification" was the best thing that happened to Armenian society in a thousand years.

Ideally as much as I hate to say it, Armenia's best chance moving forward is to make peace with its immediate neighbors (not at any cost) and concentrate on strengthening its relationship with Russia. At least Armenia can develop certain niche markets that cater regionally and hopefully in a generation have enough revenue so that the majority are not surviving on remittences.

I agree. We either make peace with our neighbors or we fully play the Russian card, or attempt to do both. There simply is no other options for us at this stage in our political development. However, I would much rather concentrate on the Russian factor instead of making genuine peace with our neighbors. In my opinion, keeping our Hai Dat alive and being with Russia will eventually give us an opportunity to expand into Western Armenia. The only way I believe Armenia can break out of its slump and realize its potential is if it breaks out of its landlocked nature. And the only possible way Armenia can theoretically can do that is with Russia.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

With this one I must disagree Armenian. A speculative union with Russia would be much different with regards to Armenian political sentiments. It is a fact that Russia will not want to make Armenia too strong or too powerful. How could an experienced person like you say Russification was the best thing that happened to Armenian society in a thousand years? They were destroying the Armenian culture, destroying the churches and the side-effects of the Russification today are that the mentality of most of the people are ‘xxxxED-UP’. From 1921 the old, strong, nationalistic feelings of the Armenians gradually disappeared. You know just like me what the mentality is of most of the Armenians in Armenia now. You want this to continue? I don’t.

The best thing for Armenia is just what it is doing now, being independent but being pro-Russian. We can make compromises like the gas pipeline, if Russia controled us believe me the gas pipeline from Iran would not have been build. On compromise the diamater is now 700, instead of the planned 1400 (Russia does not want to make Armenia benefit maximum). But we build the station and in the future we can build, if the time is there, another pipeline, because we are independent. If Russia was in control, they would also have never let Armenia to build relations with diaspora Armenians, where our future lies. (and diaspora Armenians would not been attracted to Russified Armenia). We have the chance, we are independent, now we must try to build a strong, pro-Russian, nationalistic (with influence of the Church) Armenia. We will reach our goals. Azat Hayastan!

[ZORAVAR]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

With this one I must disagree Armenian.

I am certain Armenian will reply to your post. I will throw in my 2cents worth in the meanwhile.

It is a fact that Russia will not want to make Armenia too strong or too powerful.

And how strong and powerfull are we now? and what better way do you have to make us stronger and more powerfull?

How could an experienced person like you say Russification was the best thing that happened to Armenian society in a thousand years? They were destroying the Armenian culture, destroying the churches and the side-effects of the Russification today are that the mentality of most of the people are ‘xxxxED-UP’.

You are confusing Sovietization with Russification. Everyone in the Soviet Union was being xx-ed up (I am using your elaborate words), that includes Armenians, Ukrainians, Russians etc. Today, Russians are renovating and building churches, unlike the communist Soviets. You are mixed-up.

Also, you are also forgetting the positive things that happened during the 70 years of Soviet rule. Think of Armenia in 1921, how good were things at that time?

From 1921 the old, strong, nationalistic feelings of the Armenians gradually disappeared. You know just like me what the mentality is of most of the Armenians in Armenia now.

You are 100% wrong.

Have you been in Armenia during 1991-92-93-94? No electricity, no water, no jobs, war, harsh winter.....The immense hardship and sacrifices that our brothers and sisters went through....the only things that kept Armenians going was their love and attachement to their land, culture, church, history etc.

If the nationalistic/patriotic feeling was disappearing, we would not have won the NK conflict. We would not have survived as a nation after 1991 independence. We would not have a country now. We would not be speaking our language in Armenia. There would not be a single Armenian in Armenia today, etc. etc.

In fact, the one thing that the Communist Soviets failed to destroy is nationalism; look at the Chechnya, the Baltics, Armenia, Cossaks etc etc.

And as Armenian mentioned in a previous post: In the Russian Federation, all ethnicities (Chechens, Abkhazes, Ossetians, Udmurts, Tatars, Chavuches, Kamiks etc.) are all keeping their identities.

The best thing for Armenia is just what it is doing now, being independent but being pro-Russian. We can make compromises like the gas pipeline, if Russia controled us believe me the gas pipeline from Iran would not have been build. On compromise the diamater is now 700, instead of the planned 1400 (Russia does not want to make Armenia benefit maximum). But we build the station and in the future we can build, if the time is there, another pipeline, because we are independent. If Russia was in control, they would also have never let Armenia to build relations with diaspora Armenians, where our future lies. (and diaspora Armenians would not been attracted to Russified Armenia). We have the chance, we are independent, now we must try to build a strong, pro-Russian, nationalistic (with influence of the Church) Armenia.

He never disagreed on that. Read his post well. He wants to wait another decade or two and hope for the best. He is just suggesting a remedy in case things get worst.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

And how strong and powerfull are we now? and what better way do you have to make us stronger and more powerfull?

If Russia controlled us, would that make Armenia more powerfull and stronger, if we didn’t even have the control of our own army? If Russia controlled us, they would also control our military. There is always a chance that Russia is no longer interested in Armenia and things will start over again. We must remain independent but pro-Russian and build as strong nation as we can.

You are confusing Sovietization with Russification. Everyone in the Soviet Union was being xx-ed up (I am using your elaborate words), that includes Armenians, Ukrainians, Russians etc. Today, Russians are renovating and building churches, unlike the communist Soviets. You are mixed-up.

Also, you are also forgetting the positive things that happened during the 70 years of Soviet rule. Think of Armenia in 1921, how good were things at that time?

That is true, but I also disagree that Russification in general is good for Armenia. Just walk down the streets in Moscow, and see how Russian people think, feel and do. I am for Armenification, not Russification. We are diffierent compared to any other country in this world, and I am against influence of another country.

You are 100% wrong.

Have you been in Armenia during 1991-92-93-94? No electricity, no water, no jobs, war, harsh winter.....The immense hardship and sacrifices that our brothers and sisters went through....the only things that kept Armenians going was their love and attachement to their land, culture, church, history etc.

If the nationalistic/patriotic feeling was disappearing, we would not have won the NK conflict. We would not have survived as a nation after 1991 independence. We would not have a country now. We would not be speaking our language in Armenia. There would not be a single Armenian in Armenia today, etc. etc.

In fact, the one thing that the Communist Soviets failed to destroy is nationalism; look at the Chechnya, the Baltics, Armenia, Cossaks etc etc.

And as Armenian mentioned in a previous post: In the Russian Federation, all ethnicities (Chechens, Abkhazes, Ossetians, Udmurts, Tatars, Chavuches, Kamiks etc.) are all keeping their identities.

And that is just the point, in the immense hardship people are capable of doing everything. Will the same people, who have jobs, money, electricity and ‘a nice car’ sacrifice their lives now? Yes indeed, if our values are based upon nationalism! Russification will counter this. What is your identity worth if you do not have an independent country?. How long will youre identity remain in this globelizing world? Russification will destroy the relationship with the diaspora Armenians, and we will begin all over. We are independent now and we must lay our foundations for a prosperous and independent Armenia.

[Anoush]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenia is a real mystery. There are always reports stating that our population is growing and othe reports that we're still shrinking. A lot of contradictions. But one thing that we can confirm is that it's way more stable than what was happening in the 90s.

Artsakh is enjoying a population boom that is being encouraged by the government and the Armenian diaspora. Just recently they held 700 weddings in 1 day with a reward of 2000$ (not drams) for 1 baby, 4000$ for 2... all the way up to 100 000$ for 7.

Azerbaijan, the population grows thanks to rabbit-like breeding but they do have some emigration problems.

Don't know much about Georgia.

Those darn J'ews in the States, each couple have at least 4 or 5 children to make up their haulocost deaths they say. Yes I read about Artsax's move to increase their demographics and I hope and wish Armenia would follow; but we need more land for that. If for instance we start working on our Naxichevan; things will be much better for us. I know someone here said that RA should have made the move when the azeri shoon shan vortis were demolishing our 2,500 Xachkars.

To Zoravar; I thank you for your knowledgeable and illustrative information on ours and the azeris arms. It's always informative and must to know.