Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[Artashes]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I had already done this on a post in a facebook group, so for the sake of time, I'm gonna just copy and paste my comment:

Claim #4
"He got 20% of shares of ARG, which blocked the way of Iranian gas to the Armenian market"

http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/173521/

"The Iranian ambassador declined to specify the exact gas tariff for Armenia, noting that Iran exports gas at international market prices."
The price of a thousand cubic meter of natural gas is $400 in international markets.
So even if Russia is blocking the sell of Iranian gas, it would not make any difference, because Armenia couldn't afford it.


Claim #1
"1. He achieved verification of the agreement on strategic cooperation that may block the way of other countries to the defense market of Armenia."
A few days ago Armenia got 4 300-PS systems for $30 Million
Armenia has had the S-300 since at least 2006
Iran paid $800 Million for 5 S-300VM systems

http://rt.com/politics/missiles-s300-russia-iran-deal-739/

Even though Russia was paid, it wasn't allowed to deliver this system
I repeat that, Armenia paid about 5% of what Iran paid for a similar defense system. I must note that the VM is a more advanced version than the PS, but they are nonetheless variations of the same very advanced defense system. A defense system that Iran does not have. A defense system that many notable countries around the world don't have access to. A defense system that the Azeris just got, that Armenia has had since at least 2006!
So something that you claim " that may block"
How about this Mrs. Hayrumyan, please forget Russia and show me what other options you would have if not for Russia. explain how would get something even with 5 times the price Russia is making Armenia pay. nobody is lining up to sell Armenia weapons, Let alone give them away for free. I would love to see what Russia is preventing Armenia from getting

What competition are these people seeking? You are angry because you're getting Gas for 45% of the Market Value? You're angry because you're getting weapons for 0-20% of the Market value? Really, you rather have Russia and Iran fight over selling you gas at $400, than just get it for $189 (soon to decline even more). Please someone explain this to me.

Claim 3
" He achieved commitments to eternal Armenian-Russian friendship and reiterations that the Russian base is the guarantee of security of Armenia."
I'm sorry how is this even a criticism, or him collecting tribune? Just a reminder. Japan has made enemies out of people who wouldn't have to be its enemies, has made itself a target of multiple countries, and has given up the right to have any offensive weapons . all to have American bases and alliance on its country. That the worlds thrids biggest economy. You're telling me A commitment to continue to have that base is something we didn't want?

Maybe someone can explain to me claim 2 about the presidential counsel as I don't know enough about it to comment



Now some of the things Putin didn't do:

"He did not utter a word on whether the Russian base will intervene in case of aggression against Armenia."
First of, if there's a war almost certainly will never include Armenia proper. It will involve Artsakh. Russia has no obligation to intervene in Artsakh. If Armenia is attacked, which will never be risked by even the morons that are the leaders of the Toorks to the East, Russia would have to, something that has been reiterated many times before

" He said Iran-Armenia railway is financially complicated and refused to finance it" of the right to sovereign decisions."
Is there a source for this, because I had not read anything similar to this, and cannot find anything about it other than this article, can some share where the source is for this. The only this I have heard about this is that Iran is ready to spend 1.5billion to build its part as soon as Armenia finds funding for its section, and that Russia made a general commitment in september
Other news sites say:
"During December 2 visit to Armenia Russian president Vladimir Putin, described this project as financially complicated, but feasible."
http://arka.am/.../iran_ready_to_fin...nstruction.../...
Not to mention Russian companies have shown interest in funding it, separate from the Russian state, which had never previously made any sort of commitment or comment about funding the project
So putin saying it's complicated but feasible, while Russian companies have shown an interest in funding it, is certainly a much different reality than him saying its complicated and refusing to finance it

" He did not finance the North-South Highway. The representative of the Russian ministry of transport said Armenia wants to sign with Russia an agreement on international transport for whatever reason."
Can someone explain this please? when did Russia have an obligation or commitment to finance this project?
I know they have committed to this

http://en.ria.ru/world/20130904/183162143.html

From the way it's stated, it sounds like this is in addition to this
When did that happen? I don't understand why was putin expected to this? Does Naira thinking Putin is just santa claus, throwing around presents. They've already committed $100 mill. Why would they randomly decide to finance more of it. Furthermore it's already mostly financed

"There will be no financing for the construction of the new NPP. The agreement states possible prolongation of the old NPP. "
Again, they agreed to update it
what obligation did they have to take on a project that will cost BILLIONS of dollars? Why were they required to do so?

Notice Russia gives us things that it has for free. Gas, older weapons that it is upgrading (s-300 replaced by s-400). But why would it have an obligation to just take on billions of dollars of projects
did the EU agree to do all of that, or is this standard just only for Russia

On numerous occasions when a post is in Armenian script tha refers to the "news" outlet you bring into question, I have read the English version. When I go down list list of headline topics it does seem quite there is a definite & consistent slant to the articles. It reminds me of fox news outlet in the USA. Such blatant one sided point of view & all other points of view are ridiculed.
By you giving other reports with sources certainly helps me understand & consider these important issues.
Artashes

Felt is was important to add this... Up until Londontsi asked for verification of things stated from this news outlet & Mhere's detailed analysis & questioning with different source references, I thought this publication (? Leragir? Sp) was publishing accepted facts & did not perceive what to me now seems consistently slanted and biased toward an opinion. I thought I was reading unbiased reporting.
These discussions and questioning each other on factual sources are helping me & hopefully others understand.
Artashes

[Artashes]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I had already done this on a post in a facebook group, so for the sake of time, I'm gonna just copy and paste my comment:

Claim #4
"He got 20% of shares of ARG, which blocked the way of Iranian gas to the Armenian market"

http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/173521/

"The Iranian ambassador declined to specify the exact gas tariff for Armenia, noting that Iran exports gas at international market prices."
The price of a thousand cubic meter of natural gas is $400 in international markets.
So even if Russia is blocking the sell of Iranian gas, it would not make any difference, because Armenia couldn't afford it.


Claim #1
"1. He achieved verification of the agreement on strategic cooperation that may block the way of other countries to the defense market of Armenia."
A few days ago Armenia got 4 300-PS systems for $30 Million
Armenia has had the S-300 since at least 2006
Iran paid $800 Million for 5 S-300VM systems

http://rt.com/politics/missiles-s300-russia-iran-deal-739/

Even though Russia was paid, it wasn't allowed to deliver this system
I repeat that, Armenia paid about 5% of what Iran paid for a similar defense system. I must note that the VM is a more advanced version than the PS, but they are nonetheless variations of the same very advanced defense system. A defense system that Iran does not have. A defense system that many notable countries around the world don't have access to. A defense system that the Azeris just got, that Armenia has had since at least 2006!
So something that you claim " that may block"
How about this Mrs. Hayrumyan, please forget Russia and show me what other options you would have if not for Russia. explain how would get something even with 5 times the price Russia is making Armenia pay. nobody is lining up to sell Armenia weapons, Let alone give them away for free. I would love to see what Russia is preventing Armenia from getting

What competition are these people seeking? You are angry because you're getting Gas for 45% of the Market Value? You're angry because you're getting weapons for 0-20% of the Market value? Really, you rather have Russia and Iran fight over selling you gas at $400, than just get it for $189 (soon to decline even more). Please someone explain this to me.

Claim 3
" He achieved commitments to eternal Armenian-Russian friendship and reiterations that the Russian base is the guarantee of security of Armenia."
I'm sorry how is this even a criticism, or him collecting tribune? Just a reminder. Japan has made enemies out of people who wouldn't have to be its enemies, has made itself a target of multiple countries, and has given up the right to have any offensive weapons . all to have American bases and alliance on its country. That the worlds thrids biggest economy. You're telling me A commitment to continue to have that base is something we didn't want?

Maybe someone can explain to me claim 2 about the presidential counsel as I don't know enough about it to comment



Now some of the things Putin didn't do:

"He did not utter a word on whether the Russian base will intervene in case of aggression against Armenia."
First of, if there's a war almost certainly will never include Armenia proper. It will involve Artsakh. Russia has no obligation to intervene in Artsakh. If Armenia is attacked, which will never be risked by even the morons that are the leaders of the Toorks to the East, Russia would have to, something that has been reiterated many times before

" He said Iran-Armenia railway is financially complicated and refused to finance it" of the right to sovereign decisions."
Is there a source for this, because I had not read anything similar to this, and cannot find anything about it other than this article, can some share where the source is for this. The only this I have heard about this is that Iran is ready to spend 1.5billion to build its part as soon as Armenia finds funding for its section, and that Russia made a general commitment in september
Other news sites say:
"During December 2 visit to Armenia Russian president Vladimir Putin, described this project as financially complicated, but feasible."
http://arka.am/.../iran_ready_to_fin...nstruction.../...
Not to mention Russian companies have shown interest in funding it, separate from the Russian state, which had never previously made any sort of commitment or comment about funding the project
So putin saying it's complicated but feasible, while Russian companies have shown an interest in funding it, is certainly a much different reality than him saying its complicated and refusing to finance it

" He did not finance the North-South Highway. The representative of the Russian ministry of transport said Armenia wants to sign with Russia an agreement on international transport for whatever reason."
Can someone explain this please? when did Russia have an obligation or commitment to finance this project?
I know they have committed to this

http://en.ria.ru/world/20130904/183162143.html

From the way it's stated, it sounds like this is in addition to this
When did that happen? I don't understand why was putin expected to this? Does Naira thinking Putin is just santa claus, throwing around presents. They've already committed $100 mill. Why would they randomly decide to finance more of it. Furthermore it's already mostly financed

"There will be no financing for the construction of the new NPP. The agreement states possible prolongation of the old NPP. "
Again, they agreed to update it
what obligation did they have to take on a project that will cost BILLIONS of dollars? Why were they required to do so?

Notice Russia gives us things that it has for free. Gas, older weapons that it is upgrading (s-300 replaced by s-400). But why would it have an obligation to just take on billions of dollars of projects
did the EU agree to do all of that, or is this standard just only for Russia

On numerous occasions when a post is in Armenian script tha refers to the "news" outlet you bring into question, I have read the English version. When I go down list list of headline topics it does seem quite there is a definite & consistent slant to the articles. It reminds me of fox news outlet in the USA. Such blatant one sided point of view & all other points of view are ridiculed.
By you giving other reports with sources certainly helps me understand & consider these important issues.
Artashes

[Mher]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

http://www.lragir.am/index/eng/0/comments/view/31465

Can anybody refute these facts, from the Putin visit to Armenia.
Its from Lragir, not my favourate news source but so what.

.

I had already done this on a post in a facebook group, so for the sake of time, I'm gonna just copy and paste my comment:

Claim #4
"He got 20% of shares of ARG, which blocked the way of Iranian gas to the Armenian market"

http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/173521/

"The Iranian ambassador declined to specify the exact gas tariff for Armenia, noting that Iran exports gas at international market prices."
The price of a thousand cubic meter of natural gas is $400 in international markets.
So even if Russia is blocking the sell of Iranian gas, it would not make any difference, because Armenia couldn't afford it.


Claim #1
"1. He achieved verification of the agreement on strategic cooperation that may block the way of other countries to the defense market of Armenia."
A few days ago Armenia got 4 300-PS systems for $30 Million
Armenia has had the S-300 since at least 2006
Iran paid $800 Million for 5 S-300VM systems

http://rt.com/politics/missiles-s300-russia-iran-deal-739/

Even though Russia was paid, it wasn't allowed to deliver this system
I repeat that, Armenia paid about 5% of what Iran paid for a similar defense system. I must note that the VM is a more advanced version than the PS, but they are nonetheless variations of the same very advanced defense system. A defense system that Iran does not have. A defense system that many notable countries around the world don't have access to. A defense system that the Azeris just got, that Armenia has had since at least 2006!
So something that you claim " that may block"
How about this Mrs. Hayrumyan, please forget Russia and show me what other options you would have if not for Russia. explain how would get something even with 5 times the price Russia is making Armenia pay. nobody is lining up to sell Armenia weapons, Let alone give them away for free. I would love to see what Russia is preventing Armenia from getting

What competition are these people seeking? You are angry because you're getting Gas for 45% of the Market Value? You're angry because you're getting weapons for 0-20% of the Market value? Really, you rather have Russia and Iran fight over selling you gas at $400, than just get it for $189 (soon to decline even more). Please someone explain this to me.

Claim 3
" He achieved commitments to eternal Armenian-Russian friendship and reiterations that the Russian base is the guarantee of security of Armenia."
I'm sorry how is this even a criticism, or him collecting tribune? Just a reminder. Japan has made enemies out of people who wouldn't have to be its enemies, has made itself a target of multiple countries, and has given up the right to have any offensive weapons . all to have American bases and alliance on its country. That the worlds thrids biggest economy. You're telling me A commitment to continue to have that base is something we didn't want?

Maybe someone can explain to me claim 2 about the presidential counsel as I don't know enough about it to comment



Now some of the things Putin didn't do:

"He did not utter a word on whether the Russian base will intervene in case of aggression against Armenia."
First of, if there's a war almost certainly will never include Armenia proper. It will involve Artsakh. Russia has no obligation to intervene in Artsakh. If Armenia is attacked, which will never be risked by even the morons that are the leaders of the Toorks to the East, Russia would have to, something that has been reiterated many times before

" He said Iran-Armenia railway is financially complicated and refused to finance it" of the right to sovereign decisions."
Is there a source for this, because I had not read anything similar to this, and cannot find anything about it other than this article, can some share where the source is for this. The only this I have heard about this is that Iran is ready to spend 1.5billion to build its part as soon as Armenia finds funding for its section, and that Russia made a general commitment in september
Other news sites say:
"During December 2 visit to Armenia Russian president Vladimir Putin, described this project as financially complicated, but feasible."
http://arka.am/.../iran_ready_to_fin...nstruction.../...
Not to mention Russian companies have shown interest in funding it, separate from the Russian state, which had never previously made any sort of commitment or comment about funding the project
So putin saying it's complicated but feasible, while Russian companies have shown an interest in funding it, is certainly a much different reality than him saying its complicated and refusing to finance it

" He did not finance the North-South Highway. The representative of the Russian ministry of transport said Armenia wants to sign with Russia an agreement on international transport for whatever reason."
Can someone explain this please? when did Russia have an obligation or commitment to finance this project?
I know they have committed to this

http://en.ria.ru/world/20130904/183162143.html

From the way it's stated, it sounds like this is in addition to this
When did that happen? I don't understand why was putin expected to this? Does Naira thinking Putin is just santa claus, throwing around presents. They've already committed $100 mill. Why would they randomly decide to finance more of it. Furthermore it's already mostly financed

"There will be no financing for the construction of the new NPP. The agreement states possible prolongation of the old NPP. "
Again, they agreed to update it
what obligation did they have to take on a project that will cost BILLIONS of dollars? Why were they required to do so?

Notice Russia gives us things that it has for free. Gas, older weapons that it is upgrading (s-300 replaced by s-400). But why would it have an obligation to just take on billions of dollars of projects
did the EU agree to do all of that, or is this standard just only for Russia

[londontsi]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

http://www.lragir.am/index/eng/0/comments/view/31465

Putin refused all the requests of Armenia.

1. He said Iran-Armenia railway is financially complicated and refused to finance it.

2. He did not finance the North-South Highway.
The representative of the Russian ministry of transport said Armenia wants to sign with Russia an agreement on international transport for whatever reason.

3. There will be no financing for the construction of the new NPP. The agreement states possible prolongation of the old NPP.

4. He did not utter a word on whether the Russian base will intervene in case of aggression against Armenia (such issues protract a peace settlement– V. Putin said).


Instead, he collected a lot of tribute.

1. He achieved verification of the agreement on strategic cooperation that may block the way of other countries to the defense market of Armenia.

2. He achieved the establishment of a presidential council, depriving Serzh Sargsyan of the right to sovereign decisions.

3. He achieved commitments to eternal Armenian-Russian friendship and reiterations that the Russian base is the guarantee of security of Armenia.

4. He got 20% of shares of ARG, which blocked the way of Iranian gas to the Armenian market.

The only thing that Russia did was to exempt

oil, gas and diamonds.

In addition,

all the three products will be handled by Russian companies

(Rosneft has signed an agreement on setting up a joint venture,

and there is no doubt that it will be a monopole oil trader in Armenia.)

.
Can anybody refute these facts, from the Putin visit to Armenia.
Its from Lragir, not my favourate news source but so what.

.

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Yes, I'm in full agreement on that. The killing of Armenian patriots by both soviet & Russian forces under direct kremlin authority absolutely has to be included in the equation.
The Armenian patriots I speak of are in fact simply men & women who are fighting for the right to live on their ancestral homeland & and the right to retain their ancestral homeland.
There is no justification (ligitimate) for that.
Unfortunately as I see it all the other entities are ready to sell us to.
Does Armenia have any real friends?
Artashes

Does any country on this earth have any real friends? No
Armenian patriots have been killed not only by russian but turkish, iranian, arab, georgian, azeri even by british, french, german, ukrainian and many other forces. Its all about interests.It is sad reality.
There are many interests boiling in our pot.
There are prowestern as wel as proeastern veterans and patriots.
When they get involved in politics or business, then their actions are subject to be right or wrong for our nation.
Aside from respect to them, it is important to figure which side is the right philosophy that is beneficial for Armenia.
To get to the bottom, it is important to see clearly, the thruth and real facts. Nobody does any favor by twisting reality or facts.
That has been guiding me all along.

[Artashes]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Vrej is not the only vet that I have heard who brings up these points that no one wants to hear about.....I salute them.

Yes, I'm in full agreement on that. The killing of Armenian patriots by both soviet & Russian forces under direct kremlin authority absolutely has to be included in the equation.
The Armenian patriots I speak of are in fact simply men & women who are fighting for the right to live on their ancestral homeland & and the right to retain their ancestral homeland.
There is no justification (ligitimate) for that.
Unfortunately as I see it all the other entities are ready to sell us to.
Does Armenia have any real friends?
Artashes

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Vrej is not the only vet that I have heard who brings up these points that no one wants to hear about.....I salute them.

[Mher]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Mher. I read your words about Vrej having fought for our country, his age and is still in Armenia. That makes a lot of diffrence.

Vrej... Whatever I say about your posts or the ones who write them, please don't take it peronally. I don't know you. But I take my hat off for you in respect, if what Mher says about you is true.
But also I don't back off from my comments and criticisms about those views. If you had put your own ideas, instead of those political groups, probably there could be understanding between us and we could come to important conclusions that mean a benefit for us.

I am of the same sentiment as Mher & I fully agree with the respect Hakob has expressed for you (Vrej).
I read your (Vrej) post with great interest & have found your concerns for Seven and many other topics both near and dear to my heart & sentiments.
Thanks for your input Vrej.
Sincerely as ever
Artashes

I hope my memory serves me right, and I didn't mistake Vrej for someone else, but I do believe I remember correctly.
And yes Vrej, even writing in Armenian would be much more helpful than posting these articles.
Especially when its articles from Lragir, I'm not going to spend the time and effort to read it. However if you were making an argument yourself it would be much easier to read it and understand your point of view. In the same way londontsi explained his views on the pension reform. It's something I didn't know a lot about, and didn't have an opinion on, but him writing his point of view with his arguments was much easier to understand that someone else's argument with their own agenda.

[Mher]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

The only difference I can see between Russia & Iran is russia makes much better weapons than Iran.
Also there was that time when a Russian commander found every single Armenian in a certain village murdered & did chase down the turks that did that & ordered his troops to kill every last one of the hybrid turks.
Artashes

That is really a good point. Ultimately everyone wants something.
The only difference is Russia is the worlds most nuclear proliferated country meaning it has to be taken seriously and can never be sanctioned, has world class weapons that it needs to discard due to upgrades, and yields global influence.

The only point of caution is that Armenia needs to not overplay its had and insult the only dependable neighbor we have. A neighbor that ultimately shares an enemy and would become a important ally under the right circumstances.

[Artashes]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Hi Vrej jan
First of let me say this: As someone much older than me, who fought for the country, who is still in Armenia, I think you have the right to have any view you chose, and unless I, or anyone here for that matter, make the same sacrifices you have made, nobody here has a right to criticize your opinions. Having said that, can you explain why you think the gas deal is hurting Armenia. Do you truly believe that Iran would sell us gas cheaper than $189, or even $270? Because I can not see in any world were that would be even remotely realistic. I'm not an expert in petroleum engineer or the trade of oil/gas, but to me it seems like when Armenia gets something at half the market price, at domestic prices of Russia, that has to be extremely close to the breakeven value of the gas. Why would Iran be willing to sell us something at a loss or minimal profit? Like I have stated before, I am not particularly fond of Russia or Russian culture. I'm not happy that Armenia has to forgo a lot of independent decisions for the near future. I only recognize the fact that the Russian alliance is necessary for the immediate survival of the Armenian state. So can you please explain what your views are? English or Armenian would be fine. Thank you!

Mher. I read your words about Vrej having fought for our country, his age and is still in Armenia. That makes a lot of diffrence.

Vrej... Whatever I say about your posts or the ones who write them, please don't take it peronally. I don't know you. But I take my hat off for you in respect, if what Mher says about you is true.
But also I don't back off from my comments and criticisms about those views. If you had put your own ideas, instead of those political groups, probably there could be understanding between us and we could come to important conclusions that mean a benefit for us.

I am of the same sentiment as Mher & I fully agree with the respect Hakob has expressed for you (Vrej).
I read your (Vrej) post with great interest & have found your concerns for Seven and many other topics both near and dear to my heart & sentiments.
Thanks for your input Vrej.
Sincerely as ever
Artashes