Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

"The biggest threat to Artsakh is not Baku, nor Ankara.
It is Moskva."
After this statement any reasonable person will conclude that you are indeed nothing more then a russophobe and your intentions in this forum are obvious.

Ay mart kordz tchuness, et nakhatassoutioune hasganalu tu unag tchess....
Nuyne vor tu hasganass, bidi vetz etch kreyi... Hamperutiune tchuneyi.
Ko hamar tchi, togh ko panin kna ...

[Haykakan]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

"The biggest threat to Artsakh is not Baku, nor Ankara.
It is Moskva."
After this statement any reasonable person will conclude that you are indeed nothing more then a russophobe and your intentions in this forum are obvious.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Artashes, I can sum up what the argument is in this thread.
This thread was created to discuss about true intentions of russia towards us, as to ally or foe. But I find it that actually it was sort of anti russian platform at best, where there were no true strategic discussions about russia but blind bashing and hysteria that prevails also in some circles in homeland. All kinds of baseless facts and statements are made about russia nowadays, but in my opinion real points are missed. At the same time, those bashing russia act like europe US or nato are heavens for nations and joining them would solve all our problems. Those tend to mix economic and social issues with security, and mostly never reflect that our most important issue today is the security. Because if you look at things from priorities of Armenia's security surrounded by turks, clearly there would not be europe or russia discussions today.
Maybe not in diaspora, but it is clear that there is a large group in Armenia ( trying to gain political and economical dividends or from fear of soviet empire shadow, some by just being sponsored by west) trying to damage Armenia/russia relations as much as possible (Igor mouradian for one) and bring about pro-west orange revolution of sort. I find it tragic that for those circles Armenia's security and Artsakh issue is not first priority.
There is also a large group that is slave minded towards russia too, that has made up their mind towards russia regardless of any reasons.
But, creating an atmosphere or movements that do not calculate things based on national interests and realities and dissolving our political unity is one very dangerous thing. We don't have the luxury of debates for the sake of preferences.
I find it disturbing that being a russia hater trughout my life(those who know me close, can remember and verify), I have to act as a russia defender in front of those westaholic hysterics, trying to make them think with true unbiassed reality in mind. We seem not able to learn even from turks, who never say russia or nato or France or anybody is an enemy, do unite on singular national ideas as to real benefits/damages and conduct policies only from priority of national interests towards anybody for today and future. Having this kind of discipline one can not exclude an alliance even with devil itself, if it suits us. Individual liberties and economic well being does not constitute national well being. That is how in history, Armenians being better off individually from surrounding ethnic groups have always lost nationally even to the weakest foes around. We seem to be too self centered and materialistic, mixing our individual aspirations with national ones.
That is the reason that I bring up those facts.
We should ask ourselves questions before "loving europe or russia".
1) Who's supplying us with armaments?
2) How are we guaranteeing safety against turkey and with who's help?
3) Who has invested in Armenia the most so far?
4)How has Russia conducted itself in the region, and with what motives and results?
5) How have europe and Nato conducted themselves in the region and with what motives and results? (Keep Georgia in mind and what will happen to us if in their place?)
6) What will russia gain if it "sells" out Armenia, like some people say.
7) What will russia loose if it looses the Armenian platform?
8) How are those related to karabakh?
9) Why is russia supplying us all those armaments? and what it indicates about russian plans and commitments in the region?
10) What could realistic expectations be for our security if we replace russia? What can we expect from europe?
11) Will europe commit to our security? Has europe committed itself to anybody's security?
12) What changes will gender equality or other human rights make in Armenia's identity? Consequences to emigration?.
13) How much real economical progress can be achieved in keeping with europe? with russia? (look at Bulgaria or Rumania and compare to Belarus, Kazakistan. Factor in our blockaded situation).
13) Which is our main goal in choosing europe or russia? Economy and human rights or security and Artsakh?
14) How and when will economic prosperity affect Artsakh independence, emigration and which real way with europe or russia.
15) How much and which way will our internal socioeconomic problems be affected with europe or russia. Keep in mind corruption and lack of productiveness of not only our government but also general population.
16)What are real reasons of emigration and what will good relations with europe, turkey bring?
17) How will benefit or be restrained turkey and azerbaijan with our choice with europe or russia?
18) how much influence turkey, azerbaijan have on europe, nato or russia versus us? What does this imply?
There are many many more questions that need smart and strategic, unbiassed discussions before we should make up our minds towards europe or russia.
That said, it seems that strtegic planners in government have allready made decisions about our future. Some call it selllout, some call it Putin's pressure, I call it national strategic planning. The question is am I with our government or not? Am I willing to put aside my disagreement with government or discontent towards oligarkhs and corruption and be ready to back up my government on important crossroads? In case not, can I look at things and criticise our government based on our national realities and goals with intelligence and facts or be part of histeria about anything official that comes from Yerevan?

My dear,
Most of your questions are very relevant.
But I'm afraid, the conclusions you seam to suggest are not that much, since you think like an Armenian, and expect Russians to think alike, regarding our matters...
The fact is, that selling Artsakh, or sacrificing tens of thousands of Armenian lives is not at all a cost Russia is unwilling to pay, in a game of belly dancing with Turkey and Baku. Russia did paid this price times and times again, and was willing to pay just 5 years back (Medvedev's Kazan poker party), and seems to pay just same price today...
Second and most important part of this point: From a Russian point of view, loss of Artsakh and slaughter of tens of thousands Armenian lives does ABSOLUTELY NOT MEAN loss of their FOREPOST in Armenia.
Once you do accept this fact, you would see things slitely different.

I do not say this happily. Our tragedy is that we have a "partner" that never considered us as a subject, let alone an ally.
It always considered us, or our land, as an object.

In this very fact, we, by our blind russophilia, for 3 centuries, have a huge responsability.
We still act as slaves, happy to find a better master than the turk, and ready to any sacrifice and humiliation, just to "gain" its "love"....

In all this matter, the question is not the "West".
The question is to avoid formal reintegration into russian empire, just like in 1921...., since the "empire is back", whether we want it or not.
No matter the difficulty, we must preserve our ability to decide, our independence we finally reached 'by chance', so easily, that some seem to ignore its value, and are ready to loose...
Since every return of the empire, costed us well too much in lives and in land, for the last 2 centuries....
We just can not afford anymore an other russian ruletka party....

The biggest threat to Artsakh is not Baku, nor Ankara.
It is Moskva.

It is a petty, but this is reality.

And once again, not having other evident or easy choices is not an excuse, to accept 'our faith'.
We are condemned to resist, and find the impossible way to survive.
Accepting russian diktat with no resistance, a smile on our face, is nothing else than a jump in the Yeprad... minus our honour we would not save at least....

[Artashes]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Eddo, thanks on both accounts. Hakob thank you as well for the input & clarity.
I neither support the Russia bashing NOR do I support the "mother Russia" thing. I am pro Hayastan.
Thanks again for your input & contributions & hope.
Artashes

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Artashes, I can sum up what the argument is in this thread.
This thread was created to discuss about true intentions of russia towards us, as to ally or foe. But I find it that actually it was sort of anti russian platform at best, where there were no true strategic discussions about russia but blind bashing and hysteria that prevails also in some circles in homeland. All kinds of baseless facts and statements are made about russia nowadays, but in my opinion real points are missed. At the same time, those bashing russia act like europe US or nato are heavens for nations and joining them would solve all our problems. Those tend to mix economic and social issues with security, and mostly never reflect that our most important issue today is the security. Because if you look at things from priorities of Armenia's security surrounded by turks, clearly there would not be europe or russia discussions today.
Maybe not in diaspora, but it is clear that there is a large group in Armenia ( trying to gain political and economical dividends or from fear of soviet empire shadow, some by just being sponsored by west) trying to damage Armenia/russia relations as much as possible (Igor mouradian for one) and bring about pro-west orange revolution of sort. I find it tragic that for those circles Armenia's security and Artsakh issue is not first priority.
There is also a large group that is slave minded towards russia too, that has made up their mind towards russia regardless of any reasons.
But, creating an atmosphere or movements that do not calculate things based on national interests and realities and dissolving our political unity is one very dangerous thing. We don't have the luxury of debates for the sake of preferences.
I find it disturbing that being a russia hater trughout my life(those who know me close, can remember and verify), I have to act as a russia defender in front of those westaholic hysterics, trying to make them think with true unbiassed reality in mind. We seem not able to learn even from turks, who never say russia or nato or France or anybody is an enemy, do unite on singular national ideas as to real benefits/damages and conduct policies only from priority of national interests towards anybody for today and future. Having this kind of discipline one can not exclude an alliance even with devil itself, if it suits us. Individual liberties and economic well being does not constitute national well being. That is how in history, Armenians being better off individually from surrounding ethnic groups have always lost nationally even to the weakest foes around. We seem to be too self centered and materialistic, mixing our individual aspirations with national ones.
That is the reason that I bring up those facts.
We should ask ourselves questions before "loving europe or russia".
1) Who's supplying us with armaments?
2) How are we guaranteeing safety against turkey and with who's help?
3) Who has invested in Armenia the most so far?
4)How has Russia conducted itself in the region, and with what motives and results?
5) How have europe and Nato conducted themselves in the region and with what motives and results? (Keep Georgia in mind and what will happen to us if in their place?)
6) What will russia gain if it "sells" out Armenia, like some people say.
7) What will russia loose if it looses the Armenian platform?
8) How are those related to karabakh?
9) Why is russia supplying us all those armaments? and what it indicates about russian plans and commitments in the region?
10) What could realistic expectations be for our security if we replace russia? What can we expect from europe?
11) Will europe commit to our security? Has europe committed itself to anybody's security?
12) What changes will gender equality or other human rights make in Armenia's identity? Consequences to emigration?.
13) How much real economical progress can be achieved in keeping with europe? with russia? (look at Bulgaria or Rumania and compare to Belarus, Kazakistan. Factor in our blockaded situation).
13) Which is our main goal in choosing europe or russia? Economy and human rights or security and Artsakh?
14) How and when will economic prosperity affect Artsakh independence, emigration and which real way with europe or russia.
15) How much and which way will our internal socioeconomic problems be affected with europe or russia. Keep in mind corruption and lack of productiveness of not only our government but also general population.
16)What are real reasons of emigration and what will good relations with europe, turkey bring?
17) How will benefit or be restrained turkey and azerbaijan with our choice with europe or russia?
18) how much influence turkey, azerbaijan have on europe, nato or russia versus us? What does this imply?
There are many many more questions that need smart and strategic, unbiassed discussions before we should make up our minds towards europe or russia.
That said, it seems that strtegic planners in government have allready made decisions about our future. Some call it selllout, some call it Putin's pressure, I call it national strategic planning. The question is am I with our government or not? Am I willing to put aside my disagreement with government or discontent towards oligarkhs and corruption and be ready to back up my government on important crossroads? In case not, can I look at things and criticise our government based on our national realities and goals with intelligence and facts or be part of histeria about anything official that comes from Yerevan?

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Good to see you back from Alaskian blackout hybernation Artashes.....when you login check mark the box that says keep me signed in, that might help.

btw, you are on the money on your perception of this thread.

[Artashes]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I am trying to understand what is going on in this thread & what the arguments being presented are.
I'm trying to understand the disagreement (bitter ) between Vrej & Hakakan are all about and to understand the points Hakob & others are making.
I was born & raised in the USA & bought that line hook, line, & sinker in my youth.
In my adulthood I now have to agree with Hakakan that America is not what it seems to be or what it represents itself to the world at large or even to its own people.
When I look at Russia , unfortunately I see the same discription as just described above about America.
When I look at my country (Armenia) I see the oligarchies & the govt in bed with each other in one form or fashion

Ok, I'm going to try & remember the rest of this post that has not appeared & complete this post by using reply with quote option as the other options have stopped appearing on my iPad screen.
Here goes try #5 or 6... Are in bed with each other in one form or fashion.
It seems to be the same in america but the oligarchies are called chase manhattan or Monsanto etc.
We know that we were sold out a long time ago. It seems to me we are on the selling block as I write.
It seems to me both turk & little turk are whose affection both the west & Russia are really pursuing.
I feel compelled to agree with Vrej when he said (I paraphrase) ... No matter how hard, no matter how seemingly impossible, we (Hay) HAVE to find our own solution, it is the fate we have been given.
It seems to me we have no choice.
Can anyone set me straight (please not the mouth) as to any error in my perception on this thread, please.
I feel fortunate to be an Armenian.
Artashes

[Artashes]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

In order to get my partial post above recognized I had to hit "auto save" and now can can not get auto save option to appear to see if I can retrieve the rest of my post.

And now I was compelled to log in while at the bottom of this thread it shows that one member (myself) & 3 guest are observing this post.
Can a moderator or someone in charge please explain this & help me resolve this lease.

[Artashes]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

In order to get my partial post above recognized I had to hit "auto save" and now can can not get auto save option to appear to see if I can retrieve the rest of my post.

[Artashes]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I am trying to understand what is going on in this thread & what the arguments being presented are.
I'm trying to understand the disagreement (bitter ) between Vrej & Hakakan are all about and to understand the points Hakob & others are making.
I was born & raised in the USA & bought that line hook, line, & sinker in my youth.
In my adulthood I now have to agree with Hakakan that America is not what it seems to be or what it represents itself to the world at large or even to its own people.
When I look at Russia , unfortunately I see the same discription as just described above about America.
When I look at my country (Armenia) I see the oligarchies & the govt in bed with each other in one form or fashion

This is only part of what I wrote. Where is the rest of my post???
Artashes