Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Not only its important as a military platform but it also opens doors to domestic contractors, engineers, young minds.....it is an industry of its own and pushes for inventions and dreams.

AEF....Armenian Eagle Force.

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

When the war starts; (updated version)

What are Azeri advantages?
1) They will rely on a surprise and a diversionary attack. (Londontsi)
2) Smerch will be very effective, as a mass destruction weapon in plain/flat land with high concentration of troops w/o proper entrenchment and underground fortifications as well as weaponry located in open air.
3) They have proper arsenal of other sophisticated weapons.
4) Guarantee that Russian’s wouldn’t intervene and hoping that Artsakh/Armenia will loose time and efforts on asking Russian’s to intervene and will be anxious by getting refusal or promise to intervene later on.
5) Hoping that Artsakh/Armenia leaders wouldn’t be that decisive, to react immediately, and will try to stop it by applying to the international community, loosing precious time to react.
6) Knowing our troop/weaponry locations that are not changed/dispositioned for years.
7) Enjoying Turkish and “Turkic” concealed support in manpower, armament and political area.
8) They have their own satellite to screen/locate objects in Artsakh/Armenia. Are they fully aware of its know how; to use properly?
9) Artsakh army wouldn't target Azeri civilians.
...
What are our advantages?
1) We hold the higher ground (in general) and normally it is easier to defend than to take. (Eddo)
2) Artsakh/Armenian soldiers are better trained and have a stronger will. (Eddo)
3) Counter attack is inbuilt as part of the defence strategy. (Londontsi)
...
What are Azeri weaknesses?
1) They can attack only Artsakh, while Artsakh will target all the country.
2) Oil, gas fields and major industrial complexes can be destroyed during the first hours of war. Excluding the oil fields in the Caspian that can cause environmental disaster of the sea. (Hakob)
3) Lack of strong will. (Eddo)
4) Lack of proper training. (Eddo)
5) The battlefield hostilities will quickly evolve into artillery duels. (Londontsi)
6) If the Azeri are seen to have started the war they will loose all political support from US, France and other EU countries. (Londontsi)
7) Turkish involvement has to be discounted. (Londontsi)
8) Although we will suffer, the level of refugees and destruction would be much higher on the Azeri side. (Londontsi)
9) Azeri may suffer internal ethnic unrest or rebellion against aliev's clan in case of prolonged hostilities. (Hakob)
10) Azeries are world wide known as an oppressor of its population democratic rights.
11) Fresh memories on crashing defeat in recent Artsakh war.
…
What are our weaknesses?
1) Low military budget. (Eddo)
2) Small airforce. (Eddo)
3) Latest and on-going arming of Azerbaijan. (Londontsi)
4) Azeries will target our civil population.
5) With artillery engagements, close proximity trenches will become impossible to hold. (Londontsi)
…
What should be done before the war starts?
1) With good intelligence, if we know an attack is imminent, we should pre-empt and deny them the surprise. (Eddo)
2) Building additional entrenchments and underground fortifications in the plain/flat land areas.
3) I heard we have arrangements with France to use their satellite data for screening/locating military/other objects in Azerbaijan, because the Russian data will be unreliable.
4) The times require us to grow up and make/produce our own satellite and/or their parts/subsystems. (Londontsi)
5) Azeri positions will become vulnerable with the tactical evacuation of Armenian trenches.(Londontsi)
5) Mobilizing military specialists of Armenian decent, from Russia, that are familiar with “Smerch” and other weapon know-how; that Azeries bought from Russia. Scientists that took part in developing the arms will be very useful.
6) Intensifying our UAV production and thinking about their other alternative usage ways. (censoring, bombing, transportation of things, ... (Hakob)
7) Laser military technology further development and its possible usage against enemy satellites. (Hakob)
...

Agree Eddo.
Effective airforce operations at the start of war are crucial, nobody can argue this. All the rest happens after ...

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I don't think that there is any aviators in this forum anyway. I think, that more fighter planes would be great. Especially not against azeris, but against possible turkish incursions, because in case of war with baku, maybe turks would like to mimic american air power, as to influence situation on ground without puting booths there, in order to divert our attention or maybe taking out some of our important asets. But again, I don't see any point in word "demand", in such that anything that can be demanded, or bartered or pleaded, I am sure our government has allready done.

Turkish airforce cannot get directly involved in renewed war in Artsakh other than AWACS and satelite intelligence transfer.

With an effective small airforce like I suggest would bring Azeri airforce to their knees this includes using our own UAV systems for intel. We could not face Azeri airforce head on, we will be destroyed......again, I repeat, this is very important and its not just words, you have to know how to fly!! how to Aviat, and where and when to strike their airfields, command centers while all the time avoiding their air defenses and Mig fighters, at all cost.

lol against Turkish airforce our best bet it to hide our SU-25s until time for insurgency and then bring them out for surprised strikes
.
We need a viable airforce and the only reason we don't its because Russia knows WE ARE BORN AVIATORS....we even give them the brain child of Mig design.

An aircraft like a SU-25 can stay in service more decades to come with constant upgrades and modification in weapons, navigation, and radar systems......all this time youe outdated and obsolete air defense missiles are gathering rust in hangers surrounded by tumble weeds.

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

The part about Georgia isn't quiet the same though. America has to be careful in what it does with Georgia because Georgia's enemy is Russia, a country that if for nothing else, due to its nuclear stockpile has to be taken seriously. Russia on the other hand would have to deal with Azerbaijan, a mere infant compared to Russia.

Mher, If america had to be careful for itself, then why did it manipulate georgians to go to war with russia? Weren't georgians US allies? Manipulate they did and nobody can deny it. The proof, among many many things, is in the US political and military instructors, who were present on the battlefield and some of whom were killed and shown on russian tv with their IDs. US Lied and backstabbed georgians. But by then georgia had no other way left but keep sinking into west's backend deeper and deeper. You see, with that cretin called sahakashvilli (whom I don't doubt is a CIA agent) US had an objective to totally and irreversibly damage georgia-russia relationship(and make georgia totally dependent from west). A relationship which spanned 220 years and had started when georgians invited russian troops on their land to repeal Iranians and turks. I remember georgians were russian sweethearts all the time. Sort of spoiled kids of russia. But then Shevardnadze started independent negotiations with CIA and white house in late 80's, before Soviet empire collapsed, and a dark shadow passed between Moscow and Tbilisi. Russia entered into Abkhazia and Ossetia later (while georgians were committing genocide of locals) but did not recognize their independence at that time. Russians wanted to hold therritories for bargaining chips to keep Georgia under control.
I am sure, if Georgians had not so blindly trusted west and had kept negotiating with russia instead of war, they would not suffer the horrible defeat and would still be talking about possibility of uniting with that lands. But then what is Georgia's integrity for US? A war would make russians and georgians enemies, then georgians would have nowhere to go but to US and turkey (NATO ally). Georgia would be in bag for west. And that's exactly what happened.
If anybody thinks that Artsakh matters for west is badly mistaken. It matters for us, azeris and russians(Later because of strategic importance). That's between whom the game has to be and will be played.
And people, like Igor Mouradian, who insist that entering customs union is a defeat or disaster and bring and mix colorful proeurope economic, social issues with Artsakh problem to prove that EU is the way, are no less cretins then sahakashvilli. Our number one problem and victory is and will be Artsakh, always. Without it we cannot have neither economic nor social progress. Without it Armenia will cease to exist.
We have to play the game with whoever holds the most chips in the region. And that is still russia.

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

The part about Georgia isn't quiet the same though. America has to be careful in what it does with Georgia because Georgia's enemy is Russia, a country that if for nothing else, due to its nuclear stockpile has to be taken seriously. Russia on the other hand would have to deal with Azerbaijan, a mere infant compared to Russia.

Well, Georgia became russian enemy because of turning to west. So would Armenia, in case we became european partner. You see, then Armenia would have to become part of a western mechanism trying to isolate russia in region, just like georgia has. Then russia would wipe us out by using azerbaijan. Simple. Because turks know how to play russian friends, just like they did by ataturk, for gaining the land in exchange of some guarantees for russia. Russia would not have to use it's army like it did with georgia. Azeris would do it for them. And west would perch on high branch and only craw, just like it did when georgia was being dismantled.

[Haykakan]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I think Hakob touches on a important issue. The fact is that much of our western regions including Yerevan are exposed and difficult to defend. I think we need to either build newer important buildings in more easily defendable areas or make artificial fortifications to the ones we have.

[Mher]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I understand Eddo, It is not the real partnership you would have liked. Russia have and will allways keep playing both sides.
But lets look at Georgian air force for example. Georgia has held west with both hands and look, they don't even have anything that we have. They have only 12 su25's. With your logic, georgians should get upset and ask USA or Nato as to why they don't provide them with F22's? Instead they got only a few clumsy vietnam era helicopters. Do not even talk about viable air defence systems.
The most important point to remember is that azeris have got the money, they could arm themselfs just like saudis or quwait with american weapons and then god help us. But instead they buy from russia (thanks god russians are not asleep). So russia gives azeris enought to keep them a customer, but as soon as baku starts feeling getting ahead, just like you heard Artsakh defence minister say," we have recieved so much armament that we don't even have enough storage necessury", russia balances it out.
The most important thing for Armenia to do is to play the field right. Keep talking with russia, europe, Iran. Make yourself strategically important. That is the only guarantee we have. Arms will be there.
Despite what Igor muradian sayd, our government had to give in to Putin's pressure otherwise the military balance was turning to baku's favor for real. Americans had georgia. But I find it that they did 10 times less for it militarily then what russia has done for Armenia. But instead they provoked ill prepared georgia into war with loss of all those territories. By the way that picture is the nightmare keeping baku calm now.
What are we supposed to do? kiss russian booths? No.
We should keep our head high, but be aware keenly as to what is the mechanism of keeping russian arms coming.

The part about Georgia isn't quiet the same though. America has to be careful in what it does with Georgia because Georgia's enemy is Russia, a country that if for nothing else, due to its nuclear stockpile has to be taken seriously. Russia on the other hand would have to deal with Azerbaijan, a mere infant compared to Russia.

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

You guys rather sit take chances and shoot missiles at aircraft while I will bomb you wave after wave.....I guess no aviators in this forum. A fully equipped squadrant of updated SU-25s (6 aircrafts) will bring Azeri airforce to their knees....if you know how to fly.

I don't think that there is any aviators in this forum anyway. I think, that more fighter planes would be great. Especially not against azeris, but against possible turkish incursions, because in case of war with baku, maybe turks would like to mimic american air power, as to influence situation on ground without puting booths there, in order to divert our attention or maybe taking out some of our important asets. But again, I don't see any point in word "demand", in such that anything that can be demanded, or bartered or pleaded, I am sure our government has allready done.
My point is, more you ask from russians, more you depend from them.
I don't think that azeris can produce waves of bombing, because in 1st war they had a couple of dozen aircraft and we had none, but they could never utilise them in mountains effectively.
The danger is from west, where our Araratian dasht is open terrain up to Abovian city. But again, taking up precious (pilots)Su 25s against turkish F16s maybe just asking for disaster and wiping our air force out. That could be psicologically more damaging to us then their bombs.
I think making Armenia saturated with air defences like a porcupine is more promising in that any turkish loss is an international PR disaster for them.
Also, looking back at Iraq or afghanistan wars, I think US had such air superiority because iraqi air defences were allmost none and outdated 50's tech. But in afghanistan US lost several helicopters and few aircraft because of shoulder fired rockets.
I also see that because of modern shoulder fired rockets, right now syrian airforce is allmost none effective against rebels.

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

You guys rather sit take chances and shoot missiles at aircraft while I will bomb you wave after wave.....I guess no aviators in this forum. A fully equipped squadrant of updated SU-25s (6 aircrafts) will bring Azeri airforce to their knees....if you know how to fly.

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[QUOTE=Eddo211;346072]I don't think so....he can take those Iskanders back to Russia and stick it. If he wants to show that Armenia is an ally and we are comrades then he should have brought with him attack aircraft instead of stupid mobile missiles when you as Russia has given Azerbaijani the air superiority over the conflict and then some.

I understand Eddo, It is not the real partnership you would have liked. Russia have and will allways keep playing both sides.
But lets look at Georgian air force for example. Georgia has hugged west with both hands and look, they don't even have anything that we have. They have only 12 su25's. With your logic, georgians should get upset and ask USA or Nato as to why they don't provide them with F22's? Instead they got only a few clumsy vietnam era helicopters. Do not even talk about viable air defence systems.
The most important point to remember is that azeris have got the money, they could arm themselfs just like saudis or quwait with american weapons and then god help us. But instead they buy from russia (thanks god russians are not asleep). So russia gives azeris enought to keep them a customer, but as soon as baku starts feeling getting ahead, just like you heard Artsakh defence minister say," we have recieved so much armament that we don't even have enough storage necessury", russia balances it out.
The most important thing for Armenia to do is to play the field right. Keep talking with russia, europe, Iran. Make yourself strategically important. That is the only guarantee we have. Arms will be there.
Despite what Igor muradian sayd, our government had to give in to Putin's pressure otherwise the military balance was turning to baku's favor for real. Americans had georgia. But I find it that they did 10 times less for it militarily then what russia has done for Armenia. But instead they provoked ill prepared georgia into war with loss of all those territories. By the way that picture is the nightmare keeping baku calm now.
What are we supposed to do? kiss russian booths? No.
We should keep our head high, but be aware keenly as to what is the mechanism of keeping russian arms coming.