Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?
Երբ հողը ոտքի տակ այրվում է, եւ պետք է ինչ որ կերպ փրկվել
Իգոր Մուրադյան
Ուրբաթ, 29 Նոյեմբերի 2013,
Ազգայնականության վերադարձը
Բոլոր ժամանակներում պետությունների ստեղծման եւ նրա շահերի պաշտպանության գլխավոր մոտիվը համարվել է ազգայնականությունը, որպես հումանիզմի առաջնային ու արմատական գաղափարախոսություն: Վերջին տարիների հնարավոր բոլոր իրադարձությունները եւ կասկածելի բանավեճերն ամլացրել են ազգայնականության նշանակությունը որպես ազգային-ազատագրական պայքարի ու պետականության ստեղծման գաղափարախոսություն: Հետագա իրադարձությունները եւ գործընթացները հանգեցրին նրան, որ հայկական ազգայնականությունը պարտություն կրեց եւ գործնականում անհետացավ քաղաքական ակտուալ ասպարեզից:
Քաղաքական կուսակցություններն ու խմբերը, որոնք հպարտ հայտարարում էին ազգայնականության եւ հայրենասիրության մասին, հայտնվեցին հարմարվողական կորպորացիաների «կարգավիճակում», կոմերցիոն առաջնահերթություններով:
Իհարկե, դրանում ահռելի դեր ունեցավ մանրբուրժուական տրամադրությունների ու նախապատվությունների ալիքը: Մանրբուրժուական ազգայնականությունը կարող է հաջողություն ունենալ միայն որոշակի փուլերում, սակայն շատ շուտով կտապալվի, եւ նման խմբերի առաջնորդներն ու գաղափարախոսները շահագրգիռ են դարձել ազգայնական գաղափարախոսության ավարտի հարցում:
Ազգայնականությունը պահանջում է որոշակի մենթալություն եւ էթիկա, որը կործանարար է բուրժուական հասարակության համար: Ըստ էության, հայկական ազգայնականության չեզոքացումը նշանակել է ցանկացած գաղափարախոսության, ցանկացած էթիկայի, քաղաքական ու քաղաքացիական արժեքների ոչնչացում Հայաստանում:
Պետք է ասել, որ այս դիտարկումները հանրության համար որեւէ արժեք չունեն եւ վաղուց դուրս են բերվել հանրային եւ քաղաքական որեւէ բանավեճից: Եւ դա հեշտ է բացատրել, ներկայիս հանրությանն ամենեւին պետք չէ ինչպես բանավեճը որպես հանրության արտահայտման ձեւ, այնպես էլ գաղափարախոսությունը, դա պարզապես ծիծաղելի է:
«Սեպտեմբերի 3-ին Հայաստանը հրաժարվեց ինքնիշխանությունից, կամ կորցրեց անկախությունը» արտահայտությունը հայ ժողովրդի ճնշող մեծամասնության համար լիովին անբովանդակ է, որը ոչ մի նշանակություն չունի, քանի որ ինքնիշխանությունը խորապես թշնամական հասկացություն է, եւ դրանից պետք է հնարավորինս արագ ազատվել:
Բայց պետք չէ հուսահատվել, ազգայնականության կրող քչերը կարող են լինել, սակայն նրանք միշտ կան, եւ նրանց քանակը մետաֆիզիկական ոմն առանձնահատկությունների ուժով գործնականում ֆիքսված է: Ազգայնականությունը միշտ չէ, որ ակտուալ է, եւ նրան դիմում են, երբ հանրությունն զգում է, որ հողը ոտքի տակ այրվում է, եւ պետք է ինչ որ կերպ փրկվել: Ոմանք փախչում են, իսկ ոմանք էլ փախչելու տեղ ու հնարավորություն չունեն: Այդ ժամանակ տեղի է ունենում ազգայնականության վերադարձը, բայց արդեն ոչ թե որպես հանրային լիարժեք գաղափարախոսություն, այլ քչերի ճակատագիրը, ովքեր պատրաստ են զոհել ինքզինքը:
Սակայն ամեն մի նոր սերնդի հետ կրկին առաջանում է ազգայնականության կայացման հույսը, ոչ որպես ճգնաժամային, այլ լիարժեք հանրային գաղափարախոսություն:
- See more at: http://www.lragir.am/index/arm/0/com....Iac2jcap.dpuf
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Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?
Well, just read what you said.Originally posted by Hakob View Post
Kerensky's government was the moment of weakness of Russia, a transitional moment, getting rid of the empire...
Just as early Yeltzin....
Historical fact since 1917 is: When Russia retreats from our region, it helps us, from its self interest perspective. If we disappear under a turkish last unhilating campain, they would have no more chance of return, plus their borders would be Krasnodar..., true for Kerensky, as you well said, true for Yeltzin or more precisely Grachev era..
When Russia feels self confident, and returns, the first thing it tries, out of the euphoria of expansion (?), is to try capt Turkey and Baku, not by force, but by 'bribing', at our expense... since no matter what they do, we will still love them, once they are sure to keep their foot on our soil...
True in 1917-21 + 23, + 1945-48 (remind You Stalin asking back Kars and Ardahan for Georgian SSR)..., and unfortunaly, since their "victory" and reconquesta of 8.8.2008....
No need to go to the XVIII cent, where Russia used us as cannon meat, displaced us in full complicity with the Shahs first, then the Sultans..., to colonise with "Christians" the Northern Caucasus and Abkhazia, while depleting Western Armenia... and replacing the displaced Armenians (non obstent the slaughtered hundred of thousands on the migration roads) with muslim Tcherkez Muhadjrs in Western Armenia...Leave a comment:
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Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?
Operation Ring....was that our mistake?
Artsakh is our final stand off against everyone.Leave a comment:
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Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?
I cannot tell enough to everybody to read and seek our history, find the truth and see the parallels of today's(putin's) russia vs us and past.
Most people maybe don't even know about kerenski's government in russia( I personally met his adjutant, a man in his 90's, in 1981 in L A and asked and got many answers that have read about before). How it declared newly formed Armenian republic as the protector of russia's southern gates. How it supplied large armaments to Armenians in 1917 in order to help stand up to turks( and we were successfull in fronts). How kerenski's government had declared russia free of colonialism breaking up with czarist traditions in order to speeding up the progress in it's population, but was seeking economic power and rejuvenation. How after bolshevic revolution replaced Kerenski's, at the time of russian civil war, our government sided with allied powers, the sponsors of denikin's and wrangel's armies and subsequently became bolshevic russia's enemy. How kemalist turkey foresaw the bolshevic victory in russia first and outmaneuvred us by becoming bolshevic's ally while we were desperately seeking help from Allied powers(to be rudely answered back that"our ships won't climb your mountains"), and how they left us alone with turks and bolshevics. How that resulted in the loss of therritories and only Sardarapat stopped total anihilation. How were were behind our neighbours georgians and azerbaijanis in accepting inevitable bolshevic controll and actually were fighting to last minutes in the hope of western allied power interventions(lunatics would not be so naive). How we were so naive to do the february rebellion against the bolsheviks with hopes of western intervention and how it sealed the faith of kars, igdir, Nakhijevan and Karabakh.
One does not have to go back too long to see the movement in russia in early 1990's of getting russia rid of the weight of other republics. Putin's desire to continue from where first revolution left after czar was abdicated and establishment of russia's economic power.
We have to see the likely future. We can use the past to learn from our mistakes.Leave a comment:
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Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?
My dear, please spare me lessons of patrotism.Originally posted by Hakob View Post
My comments about easiness of independence was sarcastic.
I bet I know slightly better than most here, the names, and places of martyrdom of the boys, who fell to russian or slavon (from our side, it was difficult to distinguish a russian, bielorussan or ukrainian) fired bullets. Some I had the honor to call friends...
The one imposing political integration faster than their tongue can turn is Russian diplomats nowdays, marching one after the other to Yerevan, to humiliate the remaining of our national dignity... they are already rescuscitating russian language's status in Armenia as second official language...
Is it Ok for you, to have the boss of the interior troops torturing our boys in 1991-92 officially dispatched to the Russian embassy in Yerevan? And perfectly knowing his past , our officials forced to hear lessons of Armenian_Russian friendship from him??
If it is, it is not for me.
And seriously, can you imagine a "European" empire, with a risk of dilution of our statehood....
I can't, knowing slightly the heterogenous nature of the EU... but I know quite well what russian empire looks like....
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What I said about Artsakh's loss, is exactly your inability to perceive russian perspective, no matter your coexistance or background with russians... (you may be surprised to "know", that more than 6 million of us do know russians as much as you...
)
From a russian point of view, Artsakh must have never been liberated to begin with.
The existence of the problem is enough for them, to achieve their national interests, at least what they do perceive as such...;
It is Russia who tried (Kazan/Medvedev), and still tries to impose the "return of the lower" districts to Baku, stationing of Russian troops in Artsakh as "peace keepers", to please Ankara, and it was the West, mainly the US that sabotaged the plan... not for our black eyes, sure, but yet, they did.
This was possible, because back 5 years ago, we still did had the possibility to maneuver, since we still had some independence, however Russia's weight was already imposing...
On the same subject, but the reverse side of the medal:
When the US tried to impose a plan, named after the infamous Goble, it was the russians who sabotaged it.
Or yet again in Key West....
All the problem today, is just the disapearance of that capacity to manoevre...
Our existence depends from our capacity to manewver between the 4 'friendly' poles present in our region, Russia, Iran, EU and the US.
We did exist, and kept peace, since the interests of these 4 coincided in keeping the status quo till today, and each time one center tried to change, the others sabotaged it..
If we loose that capacity to do what's called diplomacy, no matter which camp we integrate, we are lost.
Concerning arms supply .
Let me ask you : Why is it, that Russia refused to supply 2 or 3 squadrons of air superiority fighter jets, or attack helicopters, giving us the operational edge, that is the capacity to be an independent fighting force?
Is it really for the value of those planes (the official argument repeated for 20 years now??)
As part of the USSR, didn't we had the right to have 2% of the 10.000 jets of the red army???
The same Russia who left hundreds of state of the art 4-rth generation Mig 29-s , Su-24, etc.. in the ex-Warsaw pact countries, at the mercy of Nato, where they were needed only as experiment models, or scrap metal.. or hundreds more that did and still do rost all over of Russia's semi abandoned storages??
The same Russia that did offered them graciously to Lebanon, where no one had an idea of their need???
Why is it that not only our air force is virtually inexistant, but our air defense totally dependent of russia's willingness to operate? Should I remind you that in a modern war, without a air cover, no army can fight?
On a more commercial point of view: would they sell that much arms to Baku, if we had not what we had, at each given moment?
And a last question: in your opinion, why would we have accepted "russian umbrella", if they did not supplied us what they did? For what else should we have been in "their camp"?Last edited by Vrej1915; 11-28-2013, 11:29 PM.Leave a comment:
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Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?
Originally posted by Vrej1915 View Post
Here we go again....
Armenians say "Սևին սապոնն ինչ կանի որ խևին խրատն ինչ անի". How are you judjung 2 centuries? is that from another nation or Armenia? Where are your facts?
My fact is that out of greater Armenia only the part that was under russian controll survives to this day. It says something about finding common ground with them.
How are you sure that selling Artsakh will not affect Armenia is behind me. How can it be done if whole of Armenia will stand up and fight for Artsakh, like last time?
Or if Russians want to sell Artsakh, then why are they supplying so much arms that ends up in Artsakh and they know that. Where is the logic?
Everybody that asks, as to why is russia selling arms to azerbaijan answers right away that because russia is in bad shape economically. Fair. But why give arms to Armenians? Couldn't russia sell whole of Armenia with artsakh to Azerbaijan lets say for 100Bln? Why not say this and be done with our relations with russia ha?(I don't doubt that Igor Mouradians will predict this for future soon).
If you're knowledgeable enough answer this as to why russia arms Armenia? Wouldn't it make us integrate within russia without arms more quicker if we were weaker? We sure would be in so much panic that we would beg for it. Right? So why has not russia gone that way?
Why do you say that I expect the russians to think like us? I know how russians think believe me. Better than you 100%, I grew up with them. I would say your lack of knowledge or maybe your confidence of lack of other's knowledge of russians gives you impetus to try to portray them being with horns and breathing fire.
If customs union economic integration is a loss of independence for you, then european integration should be really hatefull for you, since it is not only economic integration, but also political, social and national subjection to that group. We have not yet stepped in their doors, but europe demands from us to honor gey rights to free public displays such as parades, integration of gender equality(as homosexualism) in school education, suppression of every national expressions as nationalism, free spread of any religious group even if they preach anything against Armenian values like families. It was not the russians, but european rights watch that tried to organize azerbaijani film festivals in out towns, while we are still technically at war with them.
I am not talking yet about laws that have to be changed to confirm to european laws, about total financial dependency to eurobank.
Howcome it is not about west when every article you bring in this forum only bashes russians and praises european values? Do you read them before pasting?
" our independence we finally reached 'by chance', so easily, that some seem to ignore its value, and are ready to loose..." This expression of your's really hearts and is off by miles. We did not reach anything easily. It was the result of many dedicated patriots and irigated by blood of thousands of their's in sibirian gulags and fronts of Artsakh.We could not have paid heavier price for it.
Since you are not even aware of what it took to gain our independence, you sure are not fit to act as the protector of it.
Nobody is saying not to "resist" russian or any other occupier. What the most important point is to do that based on reality and with correct calculations. Not by baseles political populism.Last edited by Hakob; 11-28-2013, 11:01 PM.Leave a comment:
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Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?
WHO INVOLVES KAVPOLIT.COM INTO ANTI-ARMENIAN PROVOCATION?
20:18 27/11/2013 " SOCIETY
Russian portal "Kavpolit.com" renowned for its articles covering
Caucasus issues was involved in anti-Armenian provocation: on the
site, while translating the travel notes of the British traveler
Daniel Hamilton serious mistakes were made, and phrase and photos
with anti-Armenian content were added, which do not exist in original.
It is noteworthy that Daniel Hamilton has published his notes on a trip
to Armenia and Karabakh from May to September, and the "translation"
was published on Kavpolit.com site in November.[http://kavpolit.com/]
In the notes made on May 16 Daniel Hamilton writes about the Armenian
town of Shushi, emphasizing that the town is often called by its
Azeri name 'Shusha' in various guidebooks. In the translation of
"the Caucasian Policy" the city is named in Azerbaijani as "Shusha"
which is presented as a place-name used by the author.
"Shushi was once one of the largest Armenian towns in the world and
the heart of the Caucasus silk trade. It retains some of its historic
buildings but saw scenes of some of the most bitter fighting during
the Karabakh war. War stories about Shushi are legendary in Karabakh.
The town served as a base from which the Azeri army launched missile
and shell attacks on Stepanakert before being dramatically recaptured
one night by Armenian forces," the blogger writes.
He notes that during the trip to Shushi one can see the influence
of both Christianity and Islam in Nagorno-Karabakh. "Ghazanchetsots
Cathedral, which was used by the Azeri army to store missiles during
the war, has been fully restored and should not be missed.
Similarly, you should make an effort to visit the Yukhari Govhar Agha
mosque which, while no longer in use, is protected by the Nagorno
Karabakh Government," the blogger reports.
In the translation of the "Caucasian policy," we see a discrepancy
with the original text: "Today Shusha is a village, but once it was a
major city of a Silk Road and the center of the Armenian culture. Many
historical buildings are preserved there that are worth seeing. Shusha
is a surprising mix of Islamic and Christian civilizations. Visit the
local fortress of Ghazanchetsots Cathedral, the 18th century Govhar
Agha mosque."
Further, in translation made by D. Jalilova a completely false
paragraph, which cannot be found in the original article, appears:
"Unlike the other monuments of local architecture, the mosque is in
terrible condition. Though officially it is protected by the state,
the building is in a dilapidated condition and the people are not
allowed to enter. Thus you may admire it only from the outside."
It is noteworthy that Daniel Hamilton, just on the contrary, writes
that the mosque is under the patronage of the NKR government.
The translator of the "Caucasian policy" entitled the excerpt about
Aghdam "Pigsty in mosque and gardens on the ruins", though text of
there is very little information about Aghdam in the original text.
Naturally, in the article written by Daniel Hamilton there is nothing
said about the pigs grazing in the mosque.
In the article published in "Caucasian policy" among the pictures made
by Daniel Hamilton there are also photos of animals grazing in the
mosque, however, the British author does not possess such photos and
cannot have them as this photo "runs" in the Internet for a long time;
a number of Internet sites used to discuss its accuracy. There were
suspicions that the photo is mounted with the help of Photoshop. It
was this picture and the mentioned above paragraph about the animals
in the mosque that caused a number of armenofobic comments on the
site of the "Caucasian policy."
Below is the paragraph about Aghdam published on Kavpolit.com. To note
in advance that only the phrase "Aghdam is a ghost city" in this text
coincides with the original publication.
Thus the fabrications attributed to Daniel Hamilton: "Today Aghdam
is a ghost city where there is not a single undamaged building left,
except the mosque of the 19th century. The mosque is decorated with
blue mosaics and is rather beautiful. But the building is gradually
falling apart because of the lack of care. And on the marble floor,
where people were once praying cows and pigs graze today. The military
allow shooting the mosque. But you can hardly be allowed to walk
around the city with a camera. Armenian fortifications are located here
which should not be photographed. The cattle is grazing on the ruins,
and people from nearby villages come to the gardens that have still
remained there to get a harvest, several dozen of homeless people
live in deserted houses," D. Jalilova writes in the "translation."
In the translated article were not included the comments of the author
concerning the fact that Karabakh had become the part of Azerbaijan
due to "the Soviet Russian policy" which was divide and rule,"
which was aimed at preventing the ethnic groups of strengthening
(e.g., Armenians)."
The blogger also writes that Nagorno-Karabakh is a democratic
country where the rule of law prevails: "The country held successful
Presidential elections in 2012 which received top marks from
international election observers (myself included)."
Naturally, this phrase was not included in the "translation" by D.
Jalilova where quite a lot of phrases appeared which cannot be found
in the original.
P.S.
At the time of publication of this article, the provocative photo was
removed from the Kavpolit.com site; probably the editorial office had
already guessed that the portal has been exposed, by involving itself
into provocation. Armenofobic comments below the article have been
removed as well. However, some fabrications of the translator presented
as the opinion of the British blogger still remain on the site.
Naturally, we understand that the editor cannot check every translated
line and often the work is based on "trust." This incident is likely
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Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?
HOW RUSSIAN TROOPS OCCUPIED ARTSAKH
The ex-head of the National Security Service Davit Shahnazaryan made
an interesting statement. He said that in 1992 the 23-rd division
of the Russian army occupied a considerable part of Artsakh for
Azerbaijan. Shahnazaryan reminded that in 1992 the USSR did not exist,
and it was the Russian army's division.
Most participants of the war in Artsakh say in private talks that
the Russian army often fought against them, therefore Azerbaijan
achieved some minor successes in Artsakh. After the liberation of
Shushi and Lachin a large-scale offensive was launched on the Armenian
armed forces in Artsakh, and Azerbaijan took a lot of territories,
and there were a lot of victims on the Armenian side. Later most of
those territories were liberated but some territories continue to be
occupied by Azerbaijan, such as the north of Martakert.
Strangely, aside from private talks there have been no specific
statements on Russia's active support to Azerbaijan during the war. A
lot of people know about this but have been silent so far. And besides
this is not a surprise in a country where a person named Krivopuskov
is on a friendly diplomatic mission who used to head the Russian riot
police in 1991 in Artsakh, disarming and intimidating the Armenians
of Artsakh.
If Krivopuskov is in full diplomatic blossom in Armenia, hardly any
flower will fade from a public statement about the actions of the
Russian army against the Armenian forces in Artsakh.
However, the statement was voiced, and it is good that it was voiced.
If Davit Shahnazaryan exaggerates, let someone prove the opposite
with facts and arguments. If there is no exaggeration, a chain of
exaggerations of the Armenian-Russian friendship will open up which
was used to feed the citizens of independent Armenia shaping the
mindset that they have to obey the Russians in any case because they
will at least protect us from enemies.
In reality, the Russians did not protect us from our enemies but fed
us to our enemies, and our security depended on how soon Russia's hand
would get tired from feeding or how soon the enemies would get full.
Russia understood that it would be easier to negotiate with a full
enemy. Hence, the Russians fed Armenians to the enemies of Armenians
and later negotiated with them.
The Armenian people escaped this meat grinder when they defended their
right to make decisions and did not exchange it with any abstract
and relative security. This made the victory of Artsakh possible.
The primary guarantee of security is the exercise of the right to make
decisions. Whenever this right is given away, the other components
of security become relative and abstract.
Hakob Badalyan 22:20 27/11/2013 Story from Lragir.am News:
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Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?
Intentionally Forgotten Tragedy
Igor Muradyan
Thursday, 28 November 2013,
In 1989-1992 the Soviet Union and Russia perpetrated genocidal acts against the people living in Nagorno-Karabakh. The Soviet and Russian troops killed over 1000 Armenians, over 40 villages in different regions of the country were emptied and destroyed, the region of Shahumyan and other tight-knit communities of Armenia were destroyed. Furthermore, thousands of Armenians were persecuted severely.
Since then neither the State Duma, nor the Russian government has anyhow addressed or assessed these events. No single Russian author, whether a writer or a journalist, has published a single line on these tragic events.
Every act or inaction by Russians is clear, and that would have been strange if it were the other way round. How about the attitude of the Armenians to these developments. Neither Yerevan, nor Stepanakert has a single monument to these events. These events are not marked anyhow, not a head of state or parliaments of Armenia and NKR has stated anything about them. Not a single significant piece has been produced though a lot of so-called writers have been speculating the topic of heroism, glorifying scoundrels who, by the way, are responsible for the events in Getashen and Shahumyan.
The official writer Zori Balayan has not published anything about these events. Why? He could have written in his notorious letter to Putin that Gulistan was destroyed and handed to the Azerbaijanis by the Russian troops in June 1992.
Earlier the impression was that of full confidence that the topic would stay under control, and apparently there are some people in charge who exercise control. Over many years these people had two purposes – make Armenians subject to Russia without forgetting about their own selves.
Now that Russia is again introduced as Armenia’s savior, it would be good to remind about these tragic events, intentionally forgotten as part of certain manipulations.
It is not a secret that history has been distorted in Russia’s favor over the past few years. This is a clear liquidation of memory. The Karabakh issue is detested by the Russians because it demonstrated how it is possible to create new borders outlined by their empire. This is as unacceptable and terrifying to them as the presence of NATO troops on the post-Soviet territory would be.
The purpose of the Russians is to prove that the Armenians do not have the right to display political and human will, as well as the right to homeland. They will not succeed, and restoration of sovereignty lost on “September 3” should begin with recovery from amnesia. It would be the right time for the parliaments of Armenia and NKR to consider declaring the 13th of June (1992) as the Day of Russia’s aggression against Armenia and the Armenian people.
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Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?
Haykakan, I've read many of your post and am in agreement with much that you have written. Although I don't actually know you, I still like you a lot. Seems to me you'd make a wonderful person to live next door to.Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
However I have to disagree on this last statement of yours.
It seems to me that Russia is acting for its own best interests & not Hayastan's.
I regret to say that but the history I've read seems to verify if not scream that.
We (Hay) need any & all the help we can get but every single offer of help from any quarter that I'm seeing offered is comming with strings attached that are not in Armenia's best interests.
How unfortunate for us.
Instead of trying to strengthen a dear friend & help that dear friend get back on his feet so they could have a strong friend to stand with them (and of course for pure altruistic reasons) it seems obvious to me they would rather own all of Armenia's assets & really dictate to us their agenda.
I gotta pick their backup over the west's for sure but the phrase -- TRUE friend is not a title I can bring myself to call them.
Man we are surrounded right now & I'm not seeing any really good options for us and I'm not seeing any true hearts saying " we understand what's happening & has happened to you" step forward for us.
And yet despite all the negative comments out there I do see real progress in many areas.
I feel we gotta take what help we can get but in the final analysis it's up to us (Armenians).
Still I read your posts with great interest & many times with much enjoyment & enlightenment.
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