Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Russia is a talking "ally", but we need an acting one. Russia is using Armenia to sell our interests while bargaining with Turkey/Azeries about its economic deals and they do it in a cynical way, apparently, knowing that our leadership has no courage to blame it, they don't even use diplomatic tricks to cover it. This is the real Russia.

What matters in fact, are actions, groundless declarations on supporting Armenia, done by some second grade Russian officials and/or Armenian decent Russian employees, so called political analysts, is the only benefit we got.

But even in the "talking" part they don't give full preference to Armenia, they support Armenians and Azeries "equally".

When the war breaks out and the Russian weapon "Smerch" and others will destroy Armenia, they will condemn azeri actions strongly. Enjoy our talking ally. Remember their passed away ally Yugoslavia, Iraq, ...

What we need now most is an acting ally, regardless how powerful it is, because even Turkey may serve for us as a talking ally, if asked.

I'd prefer one small acting ally over hundreds of powerful talking ones.

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Well, just read what you said.
Kerensky's government was the moment of weakness of Russia, a transitional moment, getting rid of the empire...
Just as early Yeltzin....
Historical fact since 1917 is: When Russia retreats from our region, it helps us, from its self interest perspective. If we disappear under a turkish last unhilating campain, they would have no more chance of return, plus their borders would be Krasnodar..., true for Kerensky, as you well said, true for Yeltzin or more precisely Grachev era..
When Russia feels self confident, and returns, the first thing it tries, out of the euphoria of expansion (?), is to try capt Turkey and Baku, not by force, but by 'bribing', at our expense... since no matter what they do, we will still love them, once they are sure to keep their foot on our soil...
True in 1917-21 + 23, + 1945-48 (remind You Stalin asking back Kars and Ardahan for Georgian SSR)..., and unfortunaly, since their "victory" and reconquesta of 8.8.2008....

No need to go to the XVIII cent, where Russia used us as cannon meat, displaced us in full complicity with the Shahs first, then the Sultans..., to colonise with "Christians" the Northern Caucasus and Abkhazia, while depleting Western Armenia... and replacing the displaced Armenians (non obstent the slaughtered hundred of thousands on the migration roads) with muslim Tcherkez Muhadjrs in Western Armenia...

So I have to put my thoughts in simpler wording ha? The history lessons I brought up was to show what happened in our history when we became russian enemies in alliance with west and how west responded in protecting us(doing nothing). The important lesson is history repeats, and we should not repeat our mistakes.
You said it earlier " The turko/russian bazar is in the making for some time now" and I agree 100%. That bazaar has been happening for 300 years.
It is my opinion that we should deal with it ourselfs facing russians in dealing with them. I do not agree that we need someone else to counter this, because there is not someone else there. The west has proven for us once that it will not come up with a motivation or resolve to counter or meddle in this bazaar for our salvation.
In process, however we dislike it, we give up some of our suvereinity. In the past and now also,the question is not just simple political bazaar, but our existance. We have survived as slaves, as vassals or not at all. I don't see any opportunity in our history of independence that we did nt want to take. Mocking ourselfs or infighting because of our conditions is stupid. We will not become independent if by just wishing it. We will be as independent as circumstances allow us in this geopolitical environment. Thats all.
Russia bashing or becoming so charged to start an orange revolution is stupid. We are not georgia or ukrain. We are locked surrounded and blockaded. We cannot allow us political adventurism. That's all folks.

P.S. in the history I brought up, I also wanted to show that since after revolution of czar, russia is not interested in keeping other nationalities as slave or vassals anymore(excluding soviet empire). It wants to create an economic empire, where nations in it's sphere are economically dependents and subjects to russian economic power. Just like in western countires.
So we have turkey , that never has stopped trying to wipe us out of our territories, and russia, who wants us to be economic subjets. Any way out?

[lampron]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

10) What could realistic expectations be for our security if we replace russia? What can we expect from europe?
11) Will europe commit to our security? Has europe committed itself to anybody's security?

in summary:
who can help us? because as former slaves we don't trust ourselves, or our leaders
not only do we not trust ourselves but we have better things to do in life than struggle and self-reliance...let's get other people to defend us while we enjoy our shish kebab!

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

For the moment Western threat is mountains away... russian is already in the house....

Russians never left house. Westerns do not even care about us. what is the question?



Second point: The turko/russian bazar is in the making for some time now, and we need someone to counter russian concessions on our behalf.....

But only please don't say that "someone" is europe pleasseee. We have given each other enough headache to start all over again.

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

You just gave the answer to your question about arms suply...

Looooolllll. So look at you maaan. Your nation gets what it gets and you point out one item and smile like a kid that asks another do you have this? this? how about this? ahaaaa then you don't have it Looolll
That does not get us far from russofobia we were discussing about does it?

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Not Only.
Operation Ring might be blamed on Soviet regime, USSR, Gorbatchev..... to justify Russia...

But 13/06/1992?? It was a full Rusian Army Corp, under russian command (23 Corp of the the ex IV Soviet Army based in Kirovabad), russian or slav officers, and mostly russian soldiers, hundreds of tanks and armored vehicles, dozens of russian helicopters and planes.... Capture of all Sahumian, and most of Martakert ... Killing more than 500 Armenians, Destruction of 60 Villages, capture of more than 30% of NKR, by "pure" russian involvement (I do not include the simultaneous "pure" azeri advances on southern and eastern fronts...)

Are you trying to connect Aprill may 1991 with jun 1992 as same actions? The left over soviet army corps with not only slav but kazakh, kirgiz or any other nationality in there bought and payd by baku? There were also chechens and other muslims there.
Those were not official russian army. I don't care about what persetage who were there.
That is why I say do not mix everything together and try to cook in one pot. Keep timeline clear and historic person where they were

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

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This is because russians would not want us to be able to start and end a war with baku independently. I have said it over and over before. Russia does not want Yerevan or baku to be too powerfull. We have said that all the game for east or west is for controll and influence in region. That is why US has not armed Georgia with F22s, but few lousy helicopters.

The only point you have my dear is to worry about our loss of total independence, but I would worry about it in case of western integration too.
Bashing russia or west, I don't see very bright solution to this problem as the things are now.

You just gave the answer to your question about arms suply...

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

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This is because russians would not want us to be able to start and end a war with baku independently. I have said it over and over before. Russia does not want Yerevan or baku to be too powerfull. We have said that all the game for east or west is for controll and influence in region. That is why US has not armed Georgia with F22s, but few lousy helicopters.

The only point you have my dear is to worry about our loss of total independence, but I would worry about it in case of western integration too.
Bashing russia or west, I don't see very bright solution to this problem as the things are now.

For the moment Western threat is mountains away... russian is already in the house....



Second point: The turko/russian bazar is in the making for some time now, and we need someone to counter russian concessions on our behalf.....

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

My dear, please spare me lessons of patrotism.
My comments about easiness of independence was sarcastic.

MMMMMMM What a subject for sarcazm.


I bet I know slightly better than most here, the names, and places of martyrdom of the boys, who fell to russian or slavon (from our side, it was difficult to distinguish a russian, bielorussan or ukrainian) fired bullets. Some I had the honor to call friends...

The one imposing political integration faster than their tongue can turn is Russian diplomats nowdays, marching one after the other to Yerevan, to humiliate the remaining of our national dignity... they are already rescuscitating russian language's status in Armenia as second official language...

Is it Ok for you, to have the boss of the interior troops torturing our boys in 1991-92 officially dispatched to the Russian embassy in Yerevan? And perfectly knowing his past , our officials forced to hear lessons of Armenian_Russian friendship from him??
If it is, it is not for me.

Bring that date a year less to only 1991 (aprill to may to be exact) since there was no soviet union in 1992. In operation ring you were dealing not with russian but soviet army. Should I remind you that soviet rigime was repressive and cruel? We were part of soviets and just like in 1968 Armenian solders killing in people in Prague in cshechoslovakia as part of soviet army. It would be better for everybody to bring facts exactly. I have lost one of my classmates in ring operation. we were rebels in soviet eyes. Nothing can justify theese actions, but is this what gives you the political orientation today?

And seriously, can you imagine a "European" empire, with a risk of dilution of our statehood....
I can't, knowing slightly the heterogenous nature of the EU... but I know quite well what russian empire looks like....

I can't imagine european "anything" doing anything or having any real impact in our situation.

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What I said about Artsakh's loss, is exactly your inability to perceive russian perspective, no matter your coexistance or background with russians... (you may be surprised to "know", that more than 6 million of us do know russians as much as you... )
From a russian point of view, Artsakh must have never been liberated to begin with.
The existence of the problem is enough for them, to achieve their national interests, at least what they do perceive as such...

You contradict yourself in this. The problem exists because Artsakh exists. If russia was not interested in keeping the status quo(which is what we need in order to keep surrounding territories) then it would achieve changes, it was not Armenia but baku rejecting Kazan/Madvedev plan.
That myth of then west or russia sabotaging each other's artsakh sellout plan Is not logic, since in all Yerevan accepted them and baku rejected them.
The truth is more like baku does not accept any plan that is suitable to either russians or west. Now who is trying to sell Artsakh more? Or what is this childs story of russia boogeyman tellers. Can't you guys find something better? Please do not repeat Igor mouradian or a like. They won't know in reality if their pillow is sold from under their heads.



It is Russia who tried (Kazan/Medvedev), and still tries to impose the "return of the lower" districts to Baku, stationing of Russian troops in Artsakh as "peace keepers", to please Ankara, and it was the West, mainly the US that sabotaged the plan... not for our black eyes, sure, but yet, they did.
This was possible, because back 5 years ago, we still did had the possibility to maneuver, since we still had some independence, however Russia's weight was already imposing...
On the same subject, but the reverse side of the medal:
When the US tried to impose a plan, named after the infamous Goble, it was the russians who sabotaged it.
Or yet again in Key West....

The same Russia wants to keep peacekeepers to please Ankara. LOL not for it's own strategic footing or moves against wests possible Iran war and bakus's possible involvement? I guess it does not make diffrence for you guys, as long as russia and ankara are written in one sentence. LOL
As long as we are scared of both ha?

All the problem today, is just the disapearance of that capacity to manoevre...
Our existence depends from our capacity to manewver between the 4 'friendly' poles present in our region, Russia, Iran, EU and the US.
We did exist, and kept peace, since the interests of these 4 coincided in keeping the status quo till today, and each time one center tried to change, the others sabotaged it..
If we loose that capacity to do what's called diplomacy, no matter which camp we integrate, we are lost.

This is a good point. Hard to argue against. But I see this problem with EU integration as well. Maybe not as severly as with russian(for sake of appearance at least).

Concerning arms supply .
Let me ask you : Why is it, that Russia refused to supply 2 or 3 squadrons of air superiority fighter jets, or attack helicopters, giving us the operational edge, that is the capacity to be an independent fighting force?
Is it really for the value of those planes (the official argument repeated for 20 years now??)
As part of the USSR, didn't we had the right to have 2% of the 10.000 jets of the red army???
The same Russia who left hundreds of state of the art 4-rth generation Mig 29-s , Su-24, etc.. in the ex-Warsaw pact countries, at the mercy of Nato, where they were needed only as experiment models, or scrap metal.. or hundreds more that did and still do rost all over of Russia's semi abandoned storages??
The same Russia that did offered them graciously to Lebanon, where no one had an idea of their need???

Why is it that not only our air force is virtually inexistant, but our air defense totally dependent of russia's willingness to operate? Should I remind you that in a modern war, without a air cover, no army can fight?

On a more commercial point of view: would they sell that much arms to Baku, if we had not what we had, at each given moment?

And a last question: in your opinion, why would we have accepted "russian umbrella", if they did not supplied us what they did? For what else should we have been in "their camp"?

This is because russians would not want us to be able to start and end a war with baku independently. I have said it over and over before. Russia does not want Yerevan or baku to be too powerfull. We have said that all the game for east or west is for controll and influence in region. That is why US has not armed Georgia with F22s, but few lousy helicopters.

The only point you have my dear is to worry about our loss of total independence, but I would worry about it in case of western integration too.
Bashing russia or west, I don't see very bright solution to this problem as the things are now.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Operation Ring....was that our mistake?

Artsakh is our final stand off against everyone.

Not Only.
Operation Ring might be blamed on Soviet regime, USSR, Gorbatchev..... to justify Russia...

But 13/06/1992?? It was a full Rusian Army Corp, under russian command (23 Corp of the the ex IV Soviet Army based in Kirovabad), russian or slav officers, and mostly russian soldiers, hundreds of tanks and armored vehicles, dozens of russian helicopters and planes.... Capture of all Sahumian, and most of Martakert ... Killing more than 500 Armenians, Destruction of 60 Villages, capture of more than 30% of NKR, by "pure" russian involvement (I do not include the simultaneous "pure" azeri advances on southern and eastern fronts...)