Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Hmm "rejoin the Russian empire" you say..i would like to know when we left it. I think most of you are very much out of touch with reality regarding the issues Armenia faces. Yes Russia is an imperial power just like USA, England, France, Turkey.. so what? Have you seen what the USA empire has done to the middle east? Have you seen the progress China and India made once they got rid of the imperial brits? Sure it would be great if Armenia along with Artsakh could be independent but that simply is not the case today(Armenia is not China nor India) thus the only decision is which empire to join. I do not see anything other then restatement of reality in this letter thus again i ask where is the outrage that some of you are screaming about? The western option was , is , and will always be a non-issue because it does not come with security and we cannot guarantee our own security. I think the fact that so many here are outraged by the mere restatement of reality indicates something about you and how detached you are from the real world. For all the outrage expressed here again there is no feasible alternative offered by anyone-0 none-never-ever-zilch. The fact is the only power besides Russia here is Turkey and if you think that power has changed since when it tried to erradicate us then look at what it is doing in Syria-kidnapping and killing Armenians, destroying our churches, shooting and gassing civilians.. I think western media has most of you brainwashed just like the rest of the world. I am very curious for all the indignation you people show at Armenia/Artsakh relying on Russia for security..how many of you are willing to go defend Armenia instead? You know the diaspora does have millions of people but are they willing to go defend? How many you think would go? You bash Russia for doing what is in its interest but that is a lot better then what the west does because it cares not for its own national interest but rather special interest of the highest bidder thus which one would make a better partner/emperor for Armenia? Nobody has any answers to these basic questions yet disgust and resentment are rife here. The lot of you sound like a screaming baby who has long forgotten what he was screaming about in the first place but he remembers nothing but screaming thus screaming is all he does.

See when humor is needed ???
You must have worked as a Pravda correspondent in CCCP years

[Haykakan]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Hmm "rejoin the Russian empire" you say..i would like to know when we left it. I think most of you are very much out of touch with reality regarding the issues Armenia faces. Yes Russia is an imperial power just like USA, England, France, Turkey.. so what? Have you seen what the USA empire has done to the middle east? Have you seen the progress China and India made once they got rid of the imperial brits? Sure it would be great if Armenia along with Artsakh could be independent but that simply is not the case today(Armenia is not China nor India) thus the only decision is which empire to join. I do not see anything other then restatement of reality in this letter thus again i ask where is the outrage that some of you are screaming about? The western option was , is , and will always be a non-issue because it does not come with security and we cannot guarantee our own security. I think the fact that so many here are outraged by the mere restatement of reality indicates something about you and how detached you are from the real world. For all the outrage expressed here again there is no feasible alternative offered by anyone-0 none-never-ever-zilch. The fact is the only power besides Russia here is Turkey and if you think that power has changed since when it tried to erradicate us then look at what it is doing in Syria-kidnapping and killing Armenians, destroying our churches, shooting and gassing civilians.. I think western media has most of you brainwashed just like the rest of the world. I am very curious for all the indignation you people show at Armenia/Artsakh relying on Russia for security..how many of you are willing to go defend Armenia instead? You know the diaspora does have millions of people but are they willing to go defend? How many you think would go? You bash Russia for doing what is in its interest but that is a lot better then what the west does because it cares not for its own national interest but rather special interest of the highest bidder thus which one would make a better partner/emperor for Armenia? Nobody has any answers to these basic questions yet disgust and resentment are rife here. The lot of you sound like a screaming baby who has long forgotten what he was screaming about in the first place but he remembers nothing but screaming thus screaming is all he does.

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I'll repost part of something that upset the jerks of the forum when posted on the NK Military Balance thread:

....the ethos behind its writing is the admittance, by implication, by its author, that no peaceful solution to the conflict will ever be found, that Yerevan is incapable of properly defending NK in the long term, and that only Russia will be able to properly do it.

The letter is, I think, in its essence, an application to rejoin the Russian Empire. Which is why it is important to know if this letter is just an application by one private individual, or an individual acting on behalf of a section of the Armenian authorities interesting in testing the waters about a possible road for Armenia's future. The fact that a lot of the Armenian media sources stress it was an individual (but without really giving readers an explanation about why it is important to know it was just an individual) suggests to me that it was not just a private initiative by Zori Balayan. Other recent events, such as the sellout of Armenian interests to join Russia's custom's union backs up that opinion. So, it is not unreasonable to fortell a future campaign (perhaps led by the oligarchs who run Armenia) for the re-admittance of Armenia into a reborn, Putin-led, Russian Empire. (However, apart from the prestige of it happening, Russia has probably little interest in seeing such a thing ever happen).

Why didn't you repost all of your comment, jerk? About your sources and quotes from the letter. We are still waiting for your exerpts from letter.
Armenians have a nice saying about people like you, "you cannot stop a donkey from constant yeeeehaaaying, because if you close it's mouth it will yeeeehaaa from rear end, if you plug it's butt, it will yeeehaa from ears and you don't have four hands to close all the holes.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Zori Balayan’s action had both strategic as well as tactical errors for the nation.

A citizen however authoritative, jumping over all structures of society, without discussion, debate, testing the water,
offers to be taken over by another country is beyond belief.

If it was done as a personal initiative it was half baked, clumsy and idiotic as well a treacherous.

However it does have the hallmarks of some interests who seem to be in a hurry,
smells like the “strategic changeover, on the fly” of Putin/Sarkisyan vis a vi Eurasian Union.

In any even this action was very divisive, causing confusion in society regarding state security and loyalties.

Anybody within society, governing or opinion forming, offering away part of its Hayrenik, of his own initiative, is tantamount to the behaviour of a traitor.

I do not care what he did for Karabagh.
Many many others did far more than him including giving their lives.
Being a patriot at one point in life cannot be used to mitigate for being a traitor down the line.

A very good example is General Petain ( of France) who became a national hero during first world war and a collaborator and a traitor during the Nazi occupation of France.
Even after death he was not left to rest in peace, his grave was desecrated on more than one occasion.

Zori Balayan is no General Petain, but his end could be.

I'll repost part of something that upset the jerks of the forum when posted on the NK Military Balance thread:

....the ethos behind its writing is the admittance, by implication, by its author, that no peaceful solution to the conflict will ever be found, that Yerevan is incapable of properly defending NK in the long term, and that only Russia will be able to properly do it.

The letter is, I think, in its essence, an application to rejoin the Russian Empire. Which is why it is important to know if this letter is just an application by one private individual, or an individual acting on behalf of a section of the Armenian authorities interesting in testing the waters about a possible road for Armenia's future. The fact that a lot of the Armenian media sources stress it was an individual (but without really giving readers an explanation about why it is important to know it was just an individual) suggests to me that it was not just a private initiative by Zori Balayan. Other recent events, such as the sellout of Armenian interests to join Russia's custom's union backs up that opinion. So, it is not unreasonable to fortell a future campaign (perhaps led by the oligarchs who run Armenia) for the re-admittance of Armenia into a reborn, Putin-led, Russian Empire. (However, apart from the prestige of it happening, Russia has probably little interest in seeing such a thing ever happen).

[londontsi]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

We are loosing the information war with Azerbaijan and some of it its our own fault.

Zori Balayan’s action had both strategic as well as tactical errors for the nation.

A citizen however authoritative, jumping over all structures of society, without discussion, debate, testing the water,
offers to be taken over by another country is beyond belief.

If it was done as a personal initiative it was half baked, clumsy and idiotic as well a treacherous.

However it does have the hallmarks of some interests who seem to be in a hurry,
smells like the “strategic changeover, on the fly” of Putin/Sarkisyan vis a vi Eurasian Union.

In any even this action was very divisive, causing confusion in society regarding state security and loyalties.

Anybody within society, governing or opinion forming, offering away part of its Hayrenik, of his own initiative, is tantamount to the behaviour of a traitor.

I do not care what he did for Karabagh.
Many many others did far more than him including giving their lives.
Being a patriot at one point in life cannot be used to mitigate for being a traitor down the line.

A very good example is General Petain ( of France) who became a national hero during first world war and a collaborator and a traitor during the Nazi occupation of France.
Even after death he was not left to rest in peace, his grave was desecrated on more than one occasion.

Zori Balayan is no General Petain, but his end could be.

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

We are loosing the information war with Azerbaijan and some of it its our own fault.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

You mean Azadamardiks or any Artsakh fighter has any critcisms to him? Please bring it here, I'd like to see. As far as I remember, the early karabakh komitee with Mouradian, Balayan, Kaputikian or other intellektuals in there were taking their guidence from Zori and, when he used to insist that there would never be Artsakh without lachin, kelbajar and shahumian, they used to treat him a little awkward, as to what is this dreamer talking about.
Later, mouradian became a political scientist (changed from economist, though he had been a true soviet aparatchik allways, Id say a kgb ichnick like LTP). and now he is a simple russofobe. He has changed his camp from russo soviet to western. Zori is one of the last remaining true karabakh komitee figures that has not been destroyed by liberals or current government yet. And the funny fact is it is the liberals who are so vigorousely stoning him now, and rulling party is keeping strange silence, because both want him to go down. Both are interested that nobody like Zori bring karabakh isue into heat again, or rekindle any of old fellings or attitudes about national political agendas.
Balayan on the other hand was a writer and activist and still is.
You asked if I had info about his letter. No. I don't think that you can find it yet. But I saw his first interview here in early 90's and several after that. In there he was saying the same theme over and over again. And the many members of Karabakh comitee were repeating his words in their speeches to counter and substantiate that Karabakh has never been a part of Azerbaijan, it was transfered to russian controll in gulistan treaty and local Armenian population has their right to self determination and separation from baku.
I take my approach to his letter after watching his last interview a week ago, in which he stated that in it he has put those ideas that he has been saying all those years (I'd say even before karabakh comitee, since mid 70's).
Secondly, I take my que from such an Artsakh struggle giant as Pargev Serbazan. In an interview 2 days ago he defended Balayan and sayd that his letter is a call to sober up in lew of dangers over Artsakh. I see it as a reminder to todays political sides who are deep into prowest or pro russ arguments and still dividing and fragmenting our political landscape to stop the BS and remember that there is only one top agenda for us. Artsakh.
There is such a russofobia now in people like Muradian, that they are ready to call Artsakh a political clounade like igor does on his article above.
What is it a patriotic heroism? Currently prowesterns are in such a histeria that they are detaching themselfs from most important issues by the hour. If anything internal, I am sure that is what Zori's letter is about.
What testing of waters what idiot ideas? Don't they know that if current government desides to join russia and give up karabakh, or russia wnts to do that, there is no need to test anything using some far left over writer activist. It will be jut done. Liberals have filled their heads with to much western, russians don't work that way. Or what is it with russian empire? who says that russia wants to phisically create the empire? The reality is an economic empire just like european or american empires are. But that is another topic.
What is happening now is that Zori Balayan brought a subject which is not in line with what politicians want to see in heat. They rather see Armenian people sink deep into arguments of western or eastern, gay rights or not, freedom of speech or not, while the ratpacks are stealing the grains of any resolve left in country.
It is just like the arguments of gey rights, abortion or global warming that has been use in western world while corporations and powerbrokers have robbed middle class clean and brought it to financial collapse.
Who wants to see a person like Balayan still active? just hit him with hammer and let him sink deep. Right now everybody is busy with grabbing their share in country. Right now prorussians won and that drive prowesterners crazy.

I'm afraid you did not understood the comments about NKR in Muradyan's article.
It's because the original article is written in russian, and it happens that the armenian translation does dilute the nuances and sarcasm of the idea..
Any way, one of the strongest defenders of NKR as a separate entity, autonomous from Yerevan, is Muradyan, since day one...

Concerning Zori character, I'm afraid you are too far from the reality.
He never was an ideologue... he was a typical soviet namanklaturnik inteligent..., always nearer to his self interest, than anything else. Sure he was not alone, most were...
And you are very wrong to consider him out of the regime.
He is an integral part of the clan in power, even if he has no decision making , or ideologic inspiration capacity... he is just what he always was, a paid propagandist, with excentrik characteristics... in soviet days he used to explore the Siberian rivers, now in the free world, he tours the globe... but he is still the same man.
The ones who made him an 'idol', are the propagandists of Baku, who chose him as symbol of Armenian Separatism, and did never stop using his name. But as always in these cases, reality has nothing to do with the fuss...
He never counted on the ground, so never anybody needed to counter him.
He was a little epiphenomenon, excentric, self promoter...
But I know quite a lot of his actual behavior personally, and do know his immediate entourage, who took their distances for these same kind of facts. If you do not mind, I prefer not to detail. Those who know, do know.
Any way, just go to Stepanakert, and ask about him, if you are such an admirer....

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

If I was from Artsakh I would rather loose NKR in a battle against Azeris and the Russians than to just give it to Russia because they have armed Azeris too much and Armenia cannot match it so we must join Russia.ha

I'd fight azeris and russians or anybody else for Artsakh. But that does not diminish the fact that russia has responcibility towards artsakh since early 19th century. more or so in light of all those arms sells to baku, russia is contradicting to it's moral responcibilities towards Armenia and Artsakh. If Armenia is to join the customs union, then russia has to recognize the independence of Artsakh, take steps in protecting it just like it does to Armenia and provide a similar open customs possibilities between Artsakh and Armenia just like it promises between other members, because Artsakh is a separate country/political entity then Armenia now and Armenia is the guarantor of it's safety. Fewwwww. that is all the talk about. That my dear prowesterners are calling "giving Artsakh to russia".
If so, then we gave away Armenia to russia long ago by having russian military base there. Why don't we get those bases out of Armenia and see what follows. We will for sure clean Armenia of russians. In general Armenia will be cleared out overall by turks and azeris.

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

If I was from Artsakh I would rather loose NKR in a battle against Azeris and the Russians than to just give it to Russia because they have armed Azeris too much and Armenia cannot match it so we must join Russia.ha

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

My very dear,
You need to take the pain, to know slightly better the history of the origins of Artsakh movement, and the who's who of it.
Zory is a hero only for those who never took part on the ground to the struggle, who are informed via the media..... He is all but a hero.
Even his immediate relatives, true patriots, took their distance from him already during early stages, before 92...

You mean Azadamardiks or any Artsakh fighter has any critcisms to him? Please bring it here, I'd like to see. As far as I remember, the early karabakh komitee with Mouradian, Balayan, Kaputikian or other intellektuals in there were taking their guidence from Zori and, when he used to insist that there would never be Artsakh without lachin, kelbajar and shahumian, they used to treat him a little awkward, as to what is this dreamer talking about.
Later, mouradian became a political scientist (changed from economist, though he had been a true soviet aparatchik allways, Id say a kgb ichnick like LTP). and now he is a simple russofobe. He has changed his camp from russo soviet to western. Zori is one of the last remaining true karabakh komitee figures that has not been destroyed by liberals or current government yet. And the funny fact is it is the liberals who are so vigorousely stoning him now, and rulling party is keeping strange silence, because both want him to go down. Both are interested that nobody like Zori bring karabakh isue into heat again, or rekindle any of old fellings or attitudes about national political agendas.
Balayan on the other hand was a writer and activist and still is.
You asked if I had info about his letter. No. I don't think that you can find it yet. But I saw his first interview here in early 90's and several after that. In there he was saying the same theme over and over again. And the many members of Karabakh comitee were repeating his words in their speeches to counter and substantiate that Karabakh has never been a part of Azerbaijan, it was transfered to russian controll in gulistan treaty and local Armenian population has their right to self determination and separation from baku.
I take my approach to his letter after watching his last interview a week ago, in which he stated that in it he has put those ideas that he has been saying all those years (I'd say even before karabakh comitee, since mid 70's).
Secondly, I take my que from such an Artsakh struggle giant as Pargev Serbazan. In an interview 2 days ago he defended Balayan and sayd that his letter is a call to sober up in lew of dangers over Artsakh. I see it as a reminder to todays political sides who are deep into prowest or pro russ arguments and still dividing and fragmenting our political landscape to stop the BS and remember that there is only one top agenda for us. Artsakh.
There is such a russofobia now in people like Muradian, that they are ready to call Artsakh a political clounade like igor does on his article above.
What is it a patriotic heroism? Currently prowesterns are in such a histeria that they are detaching themselfs from most important issues by the hour. If anything internal, I am sure that is what Zori's letter is about.
What testing of waters what idiot ideas? Don't they know that if current government desides to join russia and give up karabakh, or russia wnts to do that, there is no need to test anything using some far left over writer activist. It will be jut done. Liberals have filled their heads with to much western, russians don't work that way. Or what is it with russian empire? who says that russia wants to phisically create the empire? The reality is an economic empire just like european or american empires are. But that is another topic.
What is happening now is that Zori Balayan brought a subject which is not in line with what politicians want to see in heat. They rather see Armenian people sink deep into arguments of western or eastern, gay rights or not, freedom of speech or not, while the ratpacks are stealing the grains of any resolve left in country.
It is just like the arguments of gey rights, abortion or global warming that has been use in western world while corporations and powerbrokers have robbed middle class clean and brought it to financial collapse.
Who wants to see a person like Balayan still active? just hit him with hammer and let him sink deep. Right now everybody is busy with grabbing their share in country. Right now prorussians won and that drive prowesterners crazy.