Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Here we go again....
Armenians say "Ս�‡ին սապոնն ինչ կանի ո�€ �x�‡ին �x�€ատն ինչ անի". How are you judjung 2 centuries? is that from another nation or Armenia? Where are your facts?
My fact is that out of greater Armenia only the part that was under russian controll survives to this day. It says something about finding common ground with them.
How are you sure that selling Artsakh will not affect Armenia is behind me. How can it be done if whole of Armenia will stand up and fight for Artsakh, like last time?
Or if Russians want to sell Artsakh, then why are they supplying so much arms that ends up in Artsakh and they know that. Where is the logic?
Everybody that asks, as to why is russia selling arms to azerbaijan answers right away that because russia is in bad shape economically. Fair. But why give arms to Armenians? Couldn't russia sell whole of Armenia with artsakh to Azerbaijan lets say for 100Bln? Why not say this and be done with our relations with russia ha?(I don't doubt that Igor Mouradians will predict this for future soon).
If you're knowledgeable enough answer this as to why russia arms Armenia? Wouldn't it make us integrate within russia without arms more quicker if we were weaker? We sure would be in so much panic that we would beg for it. Right? So why has not russia gone that way?
Why do you say that I expect the russians to think like us? I know how russians think believe me. Better than you 100%, I grew up with them. I would say your lack of knowledge or maybe your confidence of lack of other's knowledge of russians gives you impetus to try to portray them being with horns and breathing fire.
If customs union economic integration is a loss of independence for you, then european integration should be really hatefull for you, since it is not only economic integration, but also political, social and national subjection to that group. We have not yet stepped in their doors, but europe demands from us to honor gey rights to free public displays such as parades, integration of gender equality(as homosexualism) in school education, suppression of every national expressions as nationalism, free spread of any religious group even if they preach anything against Armenian values like families. It was not the russians, but european rights watch that tried to organize azerbaijani film festivals in out towns.
I am not talking yet about laws that have to be changed to confirm to european laws, about total financial dependency to eurobank.
Howcome it is not about west when every article you bring in this forum only bashes russians and praises european values? Do you read them before pasting?
" our independence we finally reached 'by chance', so easily, that some seem to ignore its value, and are ready to loose..." This expression of yours really hearts and is off by miles. We did not reach anything easily. It was the result of many dedicated patrionts and irigated by blood of thousands of theirs in sibirian gulags and fronts of Artsakh.
Since you are not even aware of what it took to gain our independence, you sure are not fit to act as the protector of it.
Nobody is saying not to "resist" russian or any other occupier. What the most important point is to do that based on reality and with correct calculations. Not by baseles political populism.

My dear, please spare me lessons of patrotism.
My comments about easiness of independence was sarcastic.
I bet I know slightly better than most here, the names, and places of martyrdom of the boys, who fell to russian or slavon (from our side, it was difficult to distinguish a russian, bielorussan or ukrainian) fired bullets. Some I had the honor to call friends...

The one imposing political integration faster than their tongue can turn is Russian diplomats nowdays, marching one after the other to Yerevan, to humiliate the remaining of our national dignity... they are already rescuscitating russian language's status in Armenia as second official language...

Is it Ok for you, to have the boss of the interior troops torturing our boys in 1991-92 officially dispatched to the Russian embassy in Yerevan? And perfectly knowing his past , our officials forced to hear lessons of Armenian_Russian friendship from him??
If it is, it is not for me.

And seriously, can you imagine a "European" empire, with a risk of dilution of our statehood....
I can't, knowing slightly the heterogenous nature of the EU... but I know quite well what russian empire looks like....

---

What I said about Artsakh's loss, is exactly your inability to perceive russian perspective, no matter your coexistance or background with russians... (you may be surprised to "know", that more than 6 million of us do know russians as much as you... )
From a russian point of view, Artsakh must have never been liberated to begin with.
The existence of the problem is enough for them, to achieve their national interests, at least what they do perceive as such...;

It is Russia who tried (Kazan/Medvedev), and still tries to impose the "return of the lower" districts to Baku, stationing of Russian troops in Artsakh as "peace keepers", to please Ankara, and it was the West, mainly the US that sabotaged the plan... not for our black eyes, sure, but yet, they did.
This was possible, because back 5 years ago, we still did had the possibility to maneuver, since we still had some independence, however Russia's weight was already imposing...
On the same subject, but the reverse side of the medal:
When the US tried to impose a plan, named after the infamous Goble, it was the russians who sabotaged it.
Or yet again in Key West....

All the problem today, is just the disapearance of that capacity to manoevre...

Our existence depends from our capacity to manewver between the 4 'friendly' poles present in our region, Russia, Iran, EU and the US.
We did exist, and kept peace, since the interests of these 4 coincided in keeping the status quo till today, and each time one center tried to change, the others sabotaged it..
If we loose that capacity to do what's called diplomacy, no matter which camp we integrate, we are lost.

Concerning arms supply .
Let me ask you : Why is it, that Russia refused to supply 2 or 3 squadrons of air superiority fighter jets, or attack helicopters, giving us the operational edge, that is the capacity to be an independent fighting force?
Is it really for the value of those planes (the official argument repeated for 20 years now??)
As part of the USSR, didn't we had the right to have 2% of the 10.000 jets of the red army???
The same Russia who left hundreds of state of the art 4-rth generation Mig 29-s , Su-24, etc.. in the ex-Warsaw pact countries, at the mercy of Nato, where they were needed only as experiment models, or scrap metal.. or hundreds more that did and still do rost all over of Russia's semi abandoned storages??
The same Russia that did offered them graciously to Lebanon, where no one had an idea of their need???

Why is it that not only our air force is virtually inexistant, but our air defense totally dependent of russia's willingness to operate? Should I remind you that in a modern war, without a air cover, no army can fight?

On a more commercial point of view: would they sell that much arms to Baku, if we had not what we had, at each given moment?

And a last question: in your opinion, why would we have accepted "russian umbrella", if they did not supplied us what they did? For what else should we have been in "their camp"?

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I cannot tell enough to everybody to read and seek our history, find the truth and see the parallels of today's(putin's) russia vs us and past.
Most people maybe don't even know about kerenski's government in russia( I personally met his adjutant, a man in his 90's, in 1981 in L A and asked and got many answers that have read about before). How it declared newly formed Armenian republic as the protector of russia's southern gates. How it supplied large armaments to Armenians in 1917 in order to help stand up to turks( and we were successfull in fronts). How kerenski's government had declared russia free of colonialism breaking up with czarist traditions in order to speeding up the progress in it's population, but was seeking economic power and rejuvenation. How after bolshevic revolution replaced Kerenski's, at the time of russian civil war, our government sided with allied powers, the sponsors of denikin's and wrangel's armies and subsequently became bolshevic russia's enemy. How kemalist turkey foresaw the bolshevic victory in russia first and outmaneuvred us by becoming bolshevic's ally while we were desperately seeking help from Allied powers(to be rudely answered back that"our ships won't climb your mountains"), and how they left us alone with turks and bolshevics. How that resulted in the loss of therritories and only Sardarapat stopped total anihilation. How were were behind our neighbours georgians and azerbaijanis in accepting inevitable bolshevic controll and actually were fighting to last minutes in the hope of western allied power interventions(lunatics would not be so naive). How we were so naive to do the february rebellion against the bolsheviks with hopes of western intervention and how it sealed the faith of kars, igdir, Nakhijevan and Karabakh.
One does not have to go back too long to see the movement in russia in early 1990's of getting russia rid of the weight of other republics. Putin's desire to continue from where first revolution left after czar was abdicated and establishment of russia's economic power.
We have to see the likely future. We can use the past to learn from our mistakes.

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Operation Ring....was that our mistake?

Artsakh is our final stand off against everyone.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I cannot tell enough to everybody to read and seek our history, find the truth and see the parallels of today's(putin's) russia vs us and past.
Most people maybe don't even know about kerenski's government in russia( I personally met his adjutant, a man in his 90's, in 1981 in L A and asked and got many answers that have read about before). How it declared newly formed Armenian republic as the protector of russia's southern gates. How it supplied large armaments to Armenians in 1917 in order to help stand up to turks( and we were successfull in fronts). How kerenski's government had declared russia free of colonialism breaking up with czarist traditions in order to speeding up the progress in it's population, but was seeking economic power and rejuvenation. How after bolshevic revolution replaced Kerenski's, at the time of russian civil war, our government sided with allied powers, the sponsors of denikin's and wrangel's armies and subsequently became bolshevic russia's enemy. How kemalist turkey foresaw the bolshevic victory in russia first and outmaneuvred us by becoming bolshevic's ally while we were desperately seeking help from Allied powers(to be rudely answered back that"our ships won't climb your mountains"), and how they left us alone with turks and bolshevics. How that resulted in the loss of therritories and only Sardarapat stopped total anihilation. How were were behind our neighbours georgians and azerbaijanis in accepting inevitable bolshevic controll and actually were fighting to last minutes in the hope of western allied power interventions(lunatics would not be so naive). How we were so naive to do the february rebellion against the bolsheviks with hopes of western intervention and how it sealed the faith of kars, igdir, Nakhijevan and Karabakh.
One does not have to go back too long to see the movement in russia in early 1990's of getting russia rid of the weight of other republics. Putin's desire to continue from where first revolution left after czar was abdicated and establishment of russia's economic power.
We have to see the likely future. We can use the past to learn from our mistakes.

Well, just read what you said.
Kerensky's government was the moment of weakness of Russia, a transitional moment, getting rid of the empire...
Just as early Yeltzin....
Historical fact since 1917 is: When Russia retreats from our region, it helps us, from its self interest perspective. If we disappear under a turkish last unhilating campain, they would have no more chance of return, plus their borders would be Krasnodar..., true for Kerensky, as you well said, true for Yeltzin or more precisely Grachev era..
When Russia feels self confident, and returns, the first thing it tries, out of the euphoria of expansion (?), is to try capt Turkey and Baku, not by force, but by 'bribing', at our expense... since no matter what they do, we will still love them, once they are sure to keep their foot on our soil...
True in 1917-21 + 23, + 1945-48 (remind You Stalin asking back Kars and Ardahan for Georgian SSR)..., and unfortunaly, since their "victory" and reconquesta of 8.8.2008....

No need to go to the XVIII cent, where Russia used us as cannon meat, displaced us in full complicity with the Shahs first, then the Sultans..., to colonise with "Christians" the Northern Caucasus and Abkhazia, while depleting Western Armenia... and replacing the displaced Armenians (non obstent the slaughtered hundred of thousands on the migration roads) with muslim Tcherkez Muhadjrs in Western Armenia...

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Երբ հողը ոտքի տակ այրվում է, եւ պետք է ինչ որ կերպ փրկվել
Իգոր Մուրադյան
Ուրբաթ, 29 Նոյեմբերի 2013,


Ազգայնականության վերադարձը
Բոլոր ժամանակներում պետությունների ստեղծման եւ նրա շահերի պաշտպանության գլխավոր մոտիվը համարվել է ազգայնականությունը, որպես հումանիզմի առաջնային ու արմատական գաղափարախոսություն: Վերջին տարիների հնարավոր բոլոր իրադարձությունները եւ կասկածելի բանավեճերն ամլացրել են ազգայնականության նշանակությունը որպես ազգային-ազատագրական պայքարի ու պետականության ստեղծման գաղափարախոսություն: Հետագա իրադարձությունները եւ գործընթացները հանգեցրին նրան, որ հայկական ազգայնականությունը պարտություն կրեց եւ գործնականում անհետացավ քաղաքական ակտուալ ասպարեզից:
Քաղաքական կուսակցություններն ու խմբերը, որոնք հպարտ հայտարարում էին ազգայնականության եւ հայրենասիրության մասին, հայտնվեցին հարմարվողական կորպորացիաների �կարգավիճակում�, կոմերցիոն առաջնահերթություններով:
Իհարկե, դրանում ահռելի դեր ունեցավ մանրբուրժուական տրամադրությունների ու նախապատվությունների ալիքը: Մանրբուրժուական ազգայնականությունը կարող է հաջողություն ունենալ միայն որոշակի փուլերում, սակայն շատ շուտով կտապալվի, եւ նման խմբերի առաջնորդներն ու գաղափարախոսները շահագրգիռ են դարձել ազգայնական գաղափարախոսության ավարտի հարցում:
Ազգայնականությունը պահանջում է որոշակի մենթալություն եւ էթիկա, որը կործանարար է բուրժուական հասարակության համար: Ըստ էության, հայկական ազգայնականության չեզոքացումը նշանակել է ցանկացած գաղափարախոսության, ցանկացած էթիկայի, քաղաքական ու քաղաքացիական արժեքների ոչնչացում Հայաստանում:
Պետք է ասել, որ այս դիտարկումները հանրության համար որեւէ արժեք չունեն եւ վաղուց դուրս են բերվել հանրային եւ քաղաքական որեւէ բանավեճից: Եւ դա հեշտ է բացատրել, ներկայիս հանրությանն ամենեւին պետք չէ ինչպես բանավեճը որպես հանրության արտահայտման ձեւ, այնպես էլ գաղափարախոսությունը, դա պարզապես ծիծաղելի է:
�Սեպտեմբերի 3-ին Հայաստանը հրաժարվեց ինքնիշխանությունից, կամ կորցրեց անկախությունը� արտահայտությունը հայ ժողովրդի ճնշող մեծամասնության համար լիովին անբովանդակ է, որը ոչ մի նշանակություն չունի, քանի որ ինքնիշխանությունը խորապես թշնամական հասկացություն է, եւ դրանից պետք է հնարավորինս արագ ազատվել:
Բայց պետք չէ հուսահատվել, ազգայնականության կրող քչերը կարող են լինել, սակայն նրանք միշտ կան, եւ նրանց քանակը մետաֆիզիկական ոմն առանձնահատկությունների ուժով գործնականում ֆիքսված է: Ազգայնականությունը միշտ չէ, որ ակտուալ է, եւ նրան դիմում են, երբ հանրությունն զգում է, որ հողը ոտքի տակ այրվում է, եւ պետք է ինչ որ կերպ փրկվել: Ոմանք փախչում են, իսկ ոմանք էլ փախչելու տեղ ու հնարավորություն չունեն: Այդ ժամանակ տեղի է ունենում ազգայնականության վերադարձը, բայց արդեն ոչ թե որպես հանրային լիարժեք գաղափարախոսություն, այլ քչերի ճակատագիրը, ովքեր պատրաստ են զոհել ինքզինքը:
Սակայն ամեն մի նոր սերնդի հետ կրկին առաջանում է ազգայնականության կայացման հույսը, ոչ որպես ճգնաժամային, այլ լիարժեք հանրային գաղափարախոսություն:
- See more at: http://www.lragir.am/index/arm/0/com....Iac2jcap.dpuf

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Operation Ring....was that our mistake?

Artsakh is our final stand off against everyone.

Not Only.
Operation Ring might be blamed on Soviet regime, USSR, Gorbatchev..... to justify Russia...

But 13/06/1992?? It was a full Rusian Army Corp, under russian command (23 Corp of the the ex IV Soviet Army based in Kirovabad), russian or slav officers, and mostly russian soldiers, hundreds of tanks and armored vehicles, dozens of russian helicopters and planes.... Capture of all Sahumian, and most of Martakert ... Killing more than 500 Armenians, Destruction of 60 Villages, capture of more than 30% of NKR, by "pure" russian involvement (I do not include the simultaneous "pure" azeri advances on southern and eastern fronts...)

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

My dear, please spare me lessons of patrotism.
My comments about easiness of independence was sarcastic.

MMMMMMM What a subject for sarcazm.


I bet I know slightly better than most here, the names, and places of martyrdom of the boys, who fell to russian or slavon (from our side, it was difficult to distinguish a russian, bielorussan or ukrainian) fired bullets. Some I had the honor to call friends...

The one imposing political integration faster than their tongue can turn is Russian diplomats nowdays, marching one after the other to Yerevan, to humiliate the remaining of our national dignity... they are already rescuscitating russian language's status in Armenia as second official language...

Is it Ok for you, to have the boss of the interior troops torturing our boys in 1991-92 officially dispatched to the Russian embassy in Yerevan? And perfectly knowing his past , our officials forced to hear lessons of Armenian_Russian friendship from him??
If it is, it is not for me.

Bring that date a year less to only 1991 (aprill to may to be exact) since there was no soviet union in 1992. In operation ring you were dealing not with russian but soviet army. Should I remind you that soviet rigime was repressive and cruel? We were part of soviets and just like in 1968 Armenian solders killing in people in Prague in cshechoslovakia as part of soviet army. It would be better for everybody to bring facts exactly. I have lost one of my classmates in ring operation. we were rebels in soviet eyes. Nothing can justify theese actions, but is this what gives you the political orientation today?

And seriously, can you imagine a "European" empire, with a risk of dilution of our statehood....
I can't, knowing slightly the heterogenous nature of the EU... but I know quite well what russian empire looks like....

I can't imagine european "anything" doing anything or having any real impact in our situation.

---

What I said about Artsakh's loss, is exactly your inability to perceive russian perspective, no matter your coexistance or background with russians... (you may be surprised to "know", that more than 6 million of us do know russians as much as you... )
From a russian point of view, Artsakh must have never been liberated to begin with.
The existence of the problem is enough for them, to achieve their national interests, at least what they do perceive as such...

You contradict yourself in this. The problem exists because Artsakh exists. If russia was not interested in keeping the status quo(which is what we need in order to keep surrounding territories) then it would achieve changes, it was not Armenia but baku rejecting Kazan/Madvedev plan.
That myth of then west or russia sabotaging each other's artsakh sellout plan Is not logic, since in all Yerevan accepted them and baku rejected them.
The truth is more like baku does not accept any plan that is suitable to either russians or west. Now who is trying to sell Artsakh more? Or what is this childs story of russia boogeyman tellers. Can't you guys find something better? Please do not repeat Igor mouradian or a like. They won't know in reality if their pillow is sold from under their heads.



It is Russia who tried (Kazan/Medvedev), and still tries to impose the "return of the lower" districts to Baku, stationing of Russian troops in Artsakh as "peace keepers", to please Ankara, and it was the West, mainly the US that sabotaged the plan... not for our black eyes, sure, but yet, they did.
This was possible, because back 5 years ago, we still did had the possibility to maneuver, since we still had some independence, however Russia's weight was already imposing...
On the same subject, but the reverse side of the medal:
When the US tried to impose a plan, named after the infamous Goble, it was the russians who sabotaged it.
Or yet again in Key West....

The same Russia wants to keep peacekeepers to please Ankara. LOL not for it's own strategic footing or moves against wests possible Iran war and bakus's possible involvement? I guess it does not make diffrence for you guys, as long as russia and ankara are written in one sentence. LOL
As long as we are scared of both ha?

All the problem today, is just the disapearance of that capacity to manoevre...
Our existence depends from our capacity to manewver between the 4 'friendly' poles present in our region, Russia, Iran, EU and the US.
We did exist, and kept peace, since the interests of these 4 coincided in keeping the status quo till today, and each time one center tried to change, the others sabotaged it..
If we loose that capacity to do what's called diplomacy, no matter which camp we integrate, we are lost.

This is a good point. Hard to argue against. But I see this problem with EU integration as well. Maybe not as severly as with russian(for sake of appearance at least).

Concerning arms supply .
Let me ask you : Why is it, that Russia refused to supply 2 or 3 squadrons of air superiority fighter jets, or attack helicopters, giving us the operational edge, that is the capacity to be an independent fighting force?
Is it really for the value of those planes (the official argument repeated for 20 years now??)
As part of the USSR, didn't we had the right to have 2% of the 10.000 jets of the red army???
The same Russia who left hundreds of state of the art 4-rth generation Mig 29-s , Su-24, etc.. in the ex-Warsaw pact countries, at the mercy of Nato, where they were needed only as experiment models, or scrap metal.. or hundreds more that did and still do rost all over of Russia's semi abandoned storages??
The same Russia that did offered them graciously to Lebanon, where no one had an idea of their need???

Why is it that not only our air force is virtually inexistant, but our air defense totally dependent of russia's willingness to operate? Should I remind you that in a modern war, without a air cover, no army can fight?

On a more commercial point of view: would they sell that much arms to Baku, if we had not what we had, at each given moment?

And a last question: in your opinion, why would we have accepted "russian umbrella", if they did not supplied us what they did? For what else should we have been in "their camp"?

This is because russians would not want us to be able to start and end a war with baku independently. I have said it over and over before. Russia does not want Yerevan or baku to be too powerfull. We have said that all the game for east or west is for controll and influence in region. That is why US has not armed Georgia with F22s, but few lousy helicopters.

The only point you have my dear is to worry about our loss of total independence, but I would worry about it in case of western integration too.
Bashing russia or west, I don't see very bright solution to this problem as the things are now.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

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This is because russians would not want us to be able to start and end a war with baku independently. I have said it over and over before. Russia does not want Yerevan or baku to be too powerfull. We have said that all the game for east or west is for controll and influence in region. That is why US has not armed Georgia with F22s, but few lousy helicopters.

The only point you have my dear is to worry about our loss of total independence, but I would worry about it in case of western integration too.
Bashing russia or west, I don't see very bright solution to this problem as the things are now.

For the moment Western threat is mountains away... russian is already in the house....



Second point: The turko/russian bazar is in the making for some time now, and we need someone to counter russian concessions on our behalf.....

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[/COLOR]

This is because russians would not want us to be able to start and end a war with baku independently. I have said it over and over before. Russia does not want Yerevan or baku to be too powerfull. We have said that all the game for east or west is for controll and influence in region. That is why US has not armed Georgia with F22s, but few lousy helicopters.

The only point you have my dear is to worry about our loss of total independence, but I would worry about it in case of western integration too.
Bashing russia or west, I don't see very bright solution to this problem as the things are now.

You just gave the answer to your question about arms suply...

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Not Only.
Operation Ring might be blamed on Soviet regime, USSR, Gorbatchev..... to justify Russia...

But 13/06/1992?? It was a full Rusian Army Corp, under russian command (23 Corp of the the ex IV Soviet Army based in Kirovabad), russian or slav officers, and mostly russian soldiers, hundreds of tanks and armored vehicles, dozens of russian helicopters and planes.... Capture of all Sahumian, and most of Martakert ... Killing more than 500 Armenians, Destruction of 60 Villages, capture of more than 30% of NKR, by "pure" russian involvement (I do not include the simultaneous "pure" azeri advances on southern and eastern fronts...)

Are you trying to connect Aprill may 1991 with jun 1992 as same actions? The left over soviet army corps with not only slav but kazakh, kirgiz or any other nationality in there bought and payd by baku? There were also chechens and other muslims there.
Those were not official russian army. I don't care about what persetage who were there.
That is why I say do not mix everything together and try to cook in one pot. Keep timeline clear and historic person where they were