Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

You just gave the answer to your question about arms suply...

Looooolllll. So look at you maaan. Your nation gets what it gets and you point out one item and smile like a kid that asks another do you have this? this? how about this? ahaaaa then you don't have it Looolll
That does not get us far from russofobia we were discussing about does it?

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

For the moment Western threat is mountains away... russian is already in the house....

Russians never left house. Westerns do not even care about us. what is the question?



Second point: The turko/russian bazar is in the making for some time now, and we need someone to counter russian concessions on our behalf.....

But only please don't say that "someone" is europe pleasseee. We have given each other enough headache to start all over again.

[lampron]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

10) What could realistic expectations be for our security if we replace russia? What can we expect from europe?
11) Will europe commit to our security? Has europe committed itself to anybody's security?

in summary:
who can help us? because as former slaves we don't trust ourselves, or our leaders
not only do we not trust ourselves but we have better things to do in life than struggle and self-reliance...let's get other people to defend us while we enjoy our shish kebab!

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Well, just read what you said.
Kerensky's government was the moment of weakness of Russia, a transitional moment, getting rid of the empire...
Just as early Yeltzin....
Historical fact since 1917 is: When Russia retreats from our region, it helps us, from its self interest perspective. If we disappear under a turkish last unhilating campain, they would have no more chance of return, plus their borders would be Krasnodar..., true for Kerensky, as you well said, true for Yeltzin or more precisely Grachev era..
When Russia feels self confident, and returns, the first thing it tries, out of the euphoria of expansion (?), is to try capt Turkey and Baku, not by force, but by 'bribing', at our expense... since no matter what they do, we will still love them, once they are sure to keep their foot on our soil...
True in 1917-21 + 23, + 1945-48 (remind You Stalin asking back Kars and Ardahan for Georgian SSR)..., and unfortunaly, since their "victory" and reconquesta of 8.8.2008....

No need to go to the XVIII cent, where Russia used us as cannon meat, displaced us in full complicity with the Shahs first, then the Sultans..., to colonise with "Christians" the Northern Caucasus and Abkhazia, while depleting Western Armenia... and replacing the displaced Armenians (non obstent the slaughtered hundred of thousands on the migration roads) with muslim Tcherkez Muhadjrs in Western Armenia...

So I have to put my thoughts in simpler wording ha? The history lessons I brought up was to show what happened in our history when we became russian enemies in alliance with west and how west responded in protecting us(doing nothing). The important lesson is history repeats, and we should not repeat our mistakes.
You said it earlier " The turko/russian bazar is in the making for some time now" and I agree 100%. That bazaar has been happening for 300 years.
It is my opinion that we should deal with it ourselfs facing russians in dealing with them. I do not agree that we need someone else to counter this, because there is not someone else there. The west has proven for us once that it will not come up with a motivation or resolve to counter or meddle in this bazaar for our salvation.
In process, however we dislike it, we give up some of our suvereinity. In the past and now also,the question is not just simple political bazaar, but our existance. We have survived as slaves, as vassals or not at all. I don't see any opportunity in our history of independence that we did nt want to take. Mocking ourselfs or infighting because of our conditions is stupid. We will not become independent if by just wishing it. We will be as independent as circumstances allow us in this geopolitical environment. Thats all.
Russia bashing or becoming so charged to start an orange revolution is stupid. We are not georgia or ukrain. We are locked surrounded and blockaded. We cannot allow us political adventurism. That's all folks.

P.S. in the history I brought up, I also wanted to show that since after revolution of czar, russia is not interested in keeping other nationalities as slave or vassals anymore(excluding soviet empire). It wants to create an economic empire, where nations in it's sphere are economically dependents and subjects to russian economic power. Just like in western countires.
So we have turkey , that never has stopped trying to wipe us out of our territories, and russia, who wants us to be economic subjets. Any way out?

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Russia is a talking "ally", but we need an acting one. Russia is using Armenia to sell our interests while bargaining with Turkey/Azeries about its economic deals and they do it in a cynical way, apparently, knowing that our leadership has no courage to blame it, they don't even use diplomatic tricks to cover it. This is the real Russia.

What matters in fact, are actions, groundless declarations on supporting Armenia, done by some second grade Russian officials and/or Armenian decent Russian employees, so called political analysts, is the only benefit we got.

But even in the "talking" part they don't give full preference to Armenia, they support Armenians and Azeries "equally".

When the war breaks out and the Russian weapon "Smerch" and others will destroy Armenia, they will condemn azeri actions strongly. Enjoy our talking ally. Remember their passed away ally Yugoslavia, Iraq, ...

What we need now most is an acting ally, regardless how powerful it is, because even Turkey may serve for us as a talking ally, if asked.

I'd prefer one small acting ally over hundreds of powerful talking ones.

[Haykakan]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

There is no point in arguing with Vrej - his hatred is blind and has devoured his soul. To Artashes and others here it is worthy to point out that Russia acts in its own interest and has every right to do so.The same people who complain about the way it is acting with Armenia would be singing praises if Armenia acted the same way with Russia or any other country. It is this hypocrisy that runs deep in all Armenian forums and spoils most arguments. We expect to get freebies from Russia even after we spat in its face by being the loudest and unrivaled when it came to leaving the soviet union. Yes that was the same union that provided living standards Armenians of Armenia have yet to enjoy since the soviet days and could possibly again see in the new Eurasion union led by you know who. There so much utter bs spewed here by russophobes and it seems to be effective in swaying opinions of many here. Vrej makes it sound like it is the USA that wants to save us and Russia that wants to kill us but as usual he is full of smelly bs. He makes it sound like the USA is willing to stand up to turkey while Russia just wants to appease it. Yeh that is why Russia has recognized the Armenian genocide while USA will not utter the G word. It is utter stupidity that spewed here by the likes of Vrej and Gegeve that seems to resonate with some of you while obvious facts get lost somehow. Where would the Armenians in Syria be todayif it was not for Russian intervention?Well you may have guessed it right if you said dead at the hands of turkish backed religious nuttjobs who happen to be supported by the power that vrej claims wants to save us(USA). It is not easy to get the facts in todays world because the media is owned by the very people who want to screw you but even with that as a given a simple logical analyzes will expose the likes of vrej for the utter bs that they represent and try to spread. So tell us dear mr USA loving vrej-why is uncle sam hiding that carpet gifted to him by armenian orphans of the genocide? You better watch what you write though caus you know who is watching every word you type so make sure to butter up for your dear uncle.

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

There is no point in arguing with Vrej - his hatred is blind and has devoured his soul. To Artashes and others here it is worthy to point out that Russia acts in its own interest and has every right to do so.The same people who complain about the way it is acting with Armenia would be singing praises if Armenia acted the same way with Russia or any other country. It is this hypocrisy that runs deep in all Armenian forums and spoils most arguments. We expect to get freebies from Russia even after we spat in its face by being the loudest and unrivaled when it came to leaving the soviet union. Yes that was the same union that provided living standards Armenians of Armenia have yet to enjoy since the soviet days and could possibly again see in the new Eurasion union led by you know who. There so much utter bs spewed here by russophobes and it seems to be effective in swaying opinions of many here. Vrej makes it sound like it is the USA that wants to save us and Russia that wants to kill us but as usual he is full of smelly bs. He makes it sound like the USA is willing to stand up to turkey while Russia just wants to appease it. Yeh that is why Russia has recognized the Armenian genocide while USA will not utter the G word. It is utter stupidity that spewed here by the likes of Vrej and Gegeve that seems to resonate with some of you while obvious facts get lost somehow. Where would the Armenians in Syria be todayif it was not for Russian intervention?Well you may have guessed it right if you said dead at the hands of turkish backed religious nuttjobs who happen to be supported by the power that vrej claims wants to save us(USA). It is not easy to get the facts in todays world because the media is owned by the very people who want to screw you but even with that as a given a simple logical analyzes will expose the likes of vrej for the utter bs that they represent and try to spread. So tell us dear mr USA loving vrej-why is uncle sam hiding that carpet gifted to him by armenian orphans of the genocide? You better watch what you write though caus you know who is watching every word you type so make sure to butter up for your dear uncle.

Let me continue your thoughts ...

Boo da bla,
Ba bla bda.
...

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Intentionally Forgotten Tragedy
Igor Muradyan
Thursday, 28 November 2013,


In 1989-1992 the Soviet Union and Russia perpetrated genocidal acts against the people living in Nagorno-Karabakh. The Soviet and Russian troops killed over 1000 Armenians, over 40 villages in different regions of the country were emptied and destroyed, the region of Shahumyan and other tight-knit communities of Armenia were destroyed. Furthermore, thousands of Armenians were persecuted severely.
Since then neither the State Duma, nor the Russian government has anyhow addressed or assessed these events. No single Russian author, whether a writer or a journalist, has published a single line on these tragic events.
Every act or inaction by Russians is clear, and that would have been strange if it were the other way round. How about the attitude of the Armenians to these developments. Neither Yerevan, nor Stepanakert has a single monument to these events. These events are not marked anyhow, not a head of state or parliaments of Armenia and NKR has stated anything about them. Not a single significant piece has been produced though a lot of so-called writers have been speculating the topic of heroism, glorifying scoundrels who, by the way, are responsible for the events in Getashen and Shahumyan.
The official writer Zori Balayan has not published anything about these events. Why? He could have written in his notorious letter to Putin that Gulistan was destroyed and handed to the Azerbaijanis by the Russian troops in June 1992.
Earlier the impression was that of full confidence that the topic would stay under control, and apparently there are some people in charge who exercise control. Over many years these people had two purposes – make Armenians subject to Russia without forgetting about their own selves.
Now that Russia is again introduced as Armenia’s savior, it would be good to remind about these tragic events, intentionally forgotten as part of certain manipulations.
It is not a secret that history has been distorted in Russia’s favor over the past few years. This is a clear liquidation of memory. The Karabakh issue is detested by the Russians because it demonstrated how it is possible to create new borders outlined by their empire. This is as unacceptable and terrifying to them as the presence of NATO troops on the post-Soviet territory would be.
The purpose of the Russians is to prove that the Armenians do not have the right to display political and human will, as well as the right to homeland. They will not succeed, and restoration of sovereignty lost on “September 3” should begin with recovery from amnesia. It would be the right time for the parliaments of Armenia and NKR to consider declaring the 13th of June (1992) as the Day of Russia’s aggression against Armenia and the Armenian people.
- See more at: http://www.lragir.am/index/eng/0/com....EFielDNR.dpuf

Look at this. THIS man joins all the events from 1989 to 1992 as "one historic event" with a single brushstroke, then puts in a number (1000) as to Armenians killed in that time frame, then joins the words soviet-rusian troops making it a "solely russian provocation" then states that neither state duma nor the russian government has anyhow addressed theese events, implying responsibility and a coverup by russia. He sumes up that "every act of russians is clear" (plural words can make it easier to convey that "russians" are enemies) Enough to boil your blood right?
He then states that neither Yerevan nor stepanakert have stated anything about it and have not produced a "single monument" to theese events. So implies that both Armenia's or Artsakh's governments have been part of a conspiracy in cover up for russians in past 21 years since. So both governments have been covering it up for so long right? First he puts the tragic events then focuses the reader in russian guilt then he throws Armenia and Artsakh in there with ease to share the guilt about singular event that nobody else knows, because it was covered up by those mentioned. Are you guys following? Is it fearfull and conspiracyfull enough? Are you angry enough? You should be ready to tear up any russians you see, along with Armenian and Artsakh governments by now.
He then throws in more villains, the whole Armenian intellectuals "not a single so called writer" has produced anything about it. Now even all Armenian intellectuals, including those who were present on the battlefields(his words also apply to battlefield commanders, because they have also recounted those times without mentioning those events as "russian agression"), are enemies. Any of you get shortness of breath yet? Going like this, he could proove to all Armenians that all Armenians are their enemies, you know.
He then gives the name of Zori Balayan. Aha. killed another rabbit with that shot.
So all those years all theese people (writers and intellectuals also) Had two purposes, make Armenians subject to Russia and enrich themselfs(according to him).
If you were a patriot living in Armenia, you would want to jump and emigrate as soon as you can by now, because according to Muradyan, allmost everyone else is a cospirator there. Talk about who and with what feed the emigration.
He then tells us that history has been distorted in russia's favor over the past years. You read it? so the history has been distorted by Armenian, Artsakh governments. By all the intellectuals and veterans. Now you are ready to accept that your memory has been liquidated. He then tries to fill up your memory gaps as to russian's true purpose, that they are trying to prove that you do not have the "right to display human will" and "right to homeland". How horrible they can be? Your so called governments and intellectuals included.
You had a sovereignity and lost it on sptember 3. You see your memory does not even go back as far as before september 3. You have amnesia and should recover from it by reading and believing what Igor Mouradyan and his circle tells ya.
Ah not to forget... Keep remembering that russia commited an agression towards you on 13th june 1992. They are the aggressors not the turks ha (have you heard Igor mention an azeri agression? So don't think about it, OK?).

This is what I call blind russofobia and distotion of facts. This is when some circles think that Armenians are stupid enough, so anything can be said. By fueling dicontent with whatever can be said, thruth or not, the whole country can be brought to a revolution and what happents after, who cares.
This is an indication of how desperate some are, as the day of putin's visit nears, to create as much dust as possible, in hopes of earning their sponsor's pat on the soulder.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Look at this. THIS man joins all the events from 1989 to 1992 as "one historic event" with a single brushstroke, then puts in a number (1000) as to Armenians killed in that time frame, then joins the words soviet-rusian troops making it a "solely russian provocation" then states that neither state duma nor the russian government has anyhow addressed theese events, implying responsibility and a coverup by russia. He sumes up that "every act of russians is clear" (plural words can make it easier to convey that "russians" are enemies) Enough to boil your blood right?
He then states that neither Yerevan nor stepanakert have stated anything about it and have not produced a "single monument" to theese events. So implies that both Armenia's or Artsakh's governments have been part of a conspiracy in cover up for russians in past 21 years since. So both governments have been covering it up for so long right? First he puts the tragic events then focuses the reader in russian guilt then he throws Armenia and Artsakh in there with ease to share the guilt about singular event that nobody else knows, because it was covered up by those mentioned. Are you guys following? Is it fearfull and conspiracyfull enough? Are you angry enough? You should be ready to tear up any russians you see, along with Armenian and Artsakh governments by now.
He then throws in more villains, the whole Armenian intellectuals "not a single so called writer" has produced anything about it. Now even all Armenian intellectuals, including those who were present on the battlefields(his words also apply to battlefield commanders, because they have also recounted those times without mentioning those events as "russian agression"), are enemies. Any of you get shortness of breath yet? Going like this, he could proove to all Armenians that all Armenians are their enemies, you know.
He then gives the name of Zori Balayan. Aha. killed another rabbit with that shot.
So all those years all theese people (writers and intellectuals also) Had two purposes, make Armenians subject to Russia and enrich themselfs(according to him).
If you were a patriot living in Armenia, you would want to jump and emigrate as soon as you can by now, because according to Muradyan, allmost everyone else is a cospirator there. Talk about who and with what feed the emigration.
He then tells us that history has been distorted in russia's favor over the past years. You read it? so the history has been distorted by Armenian, Artsakh governments. By all the intellectuals and veterans. Now you are ready to accept that your memory has been liquidated. He then tries to fill up your memory gaps as to russian's true purpose, that they are trying to prove that you do not have the "right to display human will" and "right to homeland". How horrible they can be? Your so called governments and intellectuals included.
You had a sovereignity and lost it on sptember 3. You see your memory does not even go back as far as before september 3. You have amnesia and should recover from it by reading and believing what Igor Mouradyan and his circle tells ya.
Ah not to forget... Keep remembering that russia commited an agression towards you on 13th june 1992. They are the aggressors not the turks ha (have you heard Igor mention an azeri agression? So don't think about it, OK?).

This is what I call blind russofobia and distotion of facts. This is when some circles think that Armenians are stupid enough, so anything can be said. By fueling dicontent with whatever can be said, thruth or not, the whole country can be brought to a revolution and what happents after, who cares.
This is an indication of how desperate some are, as the day of putin's visit nears, to create as much dust as possible, in hopes of earning their sponsor's pat on the soulder.

The difference between you and him, is that he was in the very location where the russian army bombarded and razed to the ground.
His friends died....
His villagers were deported....
What were you doing, in June 1992 ?

For blind russophiles, not loving and defending every betrayal of russia, is automatically russophobia and hatred....
Slave mentality, when you take us...
We even do not have the right to protest....

At least on such a tragedy as this episode, you should refrain from your dishonest blabla...
This episode is well, perfectly known.
All Artsakhians do know who did what...
All do remember the blond hairs, tall silhouettes of slavons....

It does not fit your mindset, but yet it is cruel reality.
I wish it wasn't.
Today Getashen and Gulistan, to say the least, would be ours...
Dozens of splendid boys would be among us...

[lampron]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

The difference between you and him, is that he was in the very location where the russian army bombarded and razed to the ground.
His friends died....
His villagers were deported....
What were you doing, in June 1992 ?

For blind russophiles, not loving and defending every betrayal of russia, is automatically russophobia and hatred....
Slave mentality, when you take us...
We even do not have the right to protest....

At least on such a tragedy as this episode, you should refrain from your dishonest blabla...
This episode is well, perfectly known.
All Artsakhians do know who did what...
All do remember the blond hairs, tall silhouettes of slavons....

It does not fit your mindset, but yet it is cruel reality.
I wish it wasn't.
Today Getashen and Gulistan, to say the least, would be ours...
Dozens of splendid boys would be among us...

summer of 1992 was a terrible time, yes

but those who want a comfortable life are not interested in remembering it!

We don't know what happened exactly in Russian politics, we know that the Armenian side suffered terrible losses

Can it happen again? We don't know

We know that 95% of Armenians are not able to trust themselves. They will look for Russia or another power instead of relying on themselves

Dashnak, Ramgavar or Armenian church - 100% same mentality!