Iranian-Armenian relations

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

How selective of you.....Azeris didn't need Iran's help to get these fighters in, Pakis will do it today if they had the chance, plus Iran is against these Sunni fighters which consider Persian not true Muslims.
Any unofficial volunteers from Iran means nothing since we know Turks from Turkey and Azeris live in Iran.

I am aware that Iran has its problems with Sunni Extremists, but on the other hand, Azerbaijan is Shia as well, yet the Sunni Muslims were actively fighting for them. I guess maybe difference within religion is overrided if it's a fight against the "infidels".

[Eddo211]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Selected quotes from that study:

How selective of you.....Azeris didn't need Iran's help to get these fighters in, Pakis will do it today if they had the chance, plus Iran is against these Sunni fighters which consider Persian not true Muslims.
Any unofficial volunteers from Iran means nothing since we know Turks from Turkey and Azeris live in Iran.

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Selected quotes from that study:

In 1994 Armenia complained to the UN Rapporteur of the use of mercenaries in the conflict. The
fact that plenty of CIS nationals –ie, Russians and Ukrainians– were or had been serving with the
Azeri forces seemed a lesser concern. The complaint stated specifically that nationals from Iran,
Turkey and Afghanistan had been recruited by Azerbaijan.

Baberzai came to Azerbaijan via Iran, and led a small contingent of 20
Mujahedin.

The Azeri Deputy Minister of the Interior, Rovshan Jivadov, made a secret trip to Afghanistan in
Mid-August of 1993. There he met with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, the notorious warlord and leader of
the Islamist faction Hezb-e-Islami.

Unconfirmed reports have stated that the Afghans as well as Azeri commandos were trained by
former members of the US Special Forces.

While al-Qaeda was based in the Sudan it opened a satellite office in Baku. The office was up and running in August 1995, with a significant liaison office having been established.

[Eddo211]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

The issue is if Iranians knew those Afghans were fighting in Karabakh or not - which realistically they would know.

Everybody knew about the 2500+ Afghan/Paki Wahabists. Iran, Armenia, Georgia, Russia, Turkey, USA, Europe......Baku looked liked Kabul.

why doesn't the Embassy just reject the claims made by this cleric if they are indeed false? Maybe there is some truth to it, that's why there are not taking a position?

Because the source is not reliable, and an Embassy represents the views of the President of Iran, which those views and his stand on Armenia and NKR has already been established.
With that said, there is also nothing wrong with questioning this as you do. There should never be blind trust, even among friends...however we would have known about this if it was true.

[Federate]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

The issue is if Iranians knew those Afghans were fighting in Karabakh or not - which realistically they would know. Plus, why doesn't the Embassy just reject the claims made by this cleric if they are indeed false? Maybe there is some truth to it, that's why there are not taking a position?

Probably in the interest of unity of the Iranian state which is currently experiencing political problems in the form of Ahmadinejad VS Khamenei. In Iran, the clergy is very powerful so they might not try to go against it at least publicly. They did call him an unreliable source though.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Look, I have always supported Iranian-Armenian partnership -- I am not the one impeding it. I am only as a person looking out for Armenia's interests going to look at all our relations critically - I have no attachment to any other country. For example, examining if there's a true support from the Iranian people or if it mostly just comes from government policies meant to play the geopolitics of the region. These are all valid questions and important ones for us. I have always of course talked forcefully against Iranian (and any other country's) hooligans in our country, but always supported peaceful tourists of course. I also don't want mass immigration to Armenia, because I don't want to get our fragile demographics out of balance. And as you know, I vehemently hate the inclusion of Armenia into "Greater Iran" and other similar BS which has no grounding.

You misunderstand: What I am saying is that IF the average Armenian wrote exactly the same things you write, the average Iranian would have no problem with an Azeri putting a bullet in the head of an Armenian. Secondly, IF the average Armenian wrote exactly the same things you write an average Iranian have a problem doing it themselves. In other words, what you and others are doing is teaching people on line to create a national security problem for Armenians.

On the issue of "Greater Iran" - it's up to Iran how "Great" it is or isn't - nothing written on this forum will change that. It doesn't matter what you think about "Greater Iran." As to my personal views on this topic -- they exist elsewhere, and you deliberately do not quote them.

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Have you been reading what I've been writing since I got here? Some Iranians will read the content of posts like your prior ones and will not 'stab you in the back' but decide to fight you face-to-face. It's public knowledge that people will change their stance by the types of things that have flourished here; I pointed that out to you and the mods before; I doubt you will think it's cute when people's attitudes change; you cannot expect Iranians to automatically defend Armenians if they sense that they are the subjects of indignities by Armenians. In other words, I want to state clearly that you have created risks were they did not exist and if Armenians want to stop attitudes like yours - it's up to them. If they don't -- that's fine too, but don't act surprised if you lose Iranian support; don't expect Iranians to accept half-a*sed excuses simply because you've made them. I'm not suggesting that your comments would be the sole cause - I am using them as an example of a broader attitude -- I am suggesting that if that type interchange becomes common; you can't rely on Iranian support.

Let me explain it to you this way: Put up a website ridiculing Russians, and see if you lose the support of some Russians.



I haven't read the study on the Afghan fighters: it's important to know which Afghans they were (Tajikis? Hazaras? Pashtoons? Nuristanis? Turkmen?); what their motives were (money? orders from tribal commander? religious grounds? ). My suspicion is that it was likely a handful of mercenaries.

Regarding whether Iranians would help Azerbaijan - see me comment to Mos above. If attitudes like his are prevalent among the Armenian population, and the Iranian leadership & people catch wind of it, absolutely the risks are much higher. I'm not narrowly talking about solely Mos's comments - I'm using his comments to typify a certain broader mindset that would cause Iranians to reconsider their stance.

Here is the study about the Afghans role in the Karabakh War

http://www.realinstitutoelcano.org/wps/wcm/connect/a2aa12004f018b88b8d1fc3170baead1/WP20-2008_Taarnby_Mujahedin_Nagorno-Karabakh_Global_Jihad.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=a2aa12004f018b88b8d1fc3170baead1

the only reason the Afghans and Chechen's assisted the Azeris was because the Azeris had declared a jihad against Armenia.

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Correct me if i'm wrong but did the other sources not claim that Iran gave weapons to Azerbaijan directly? Asbarez is reporting that Hassan Ameli said that they gave Afghan rebels the weapons who then went to fight in Azerbaijan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top Iran Cleric Says Afghan Rebels Fought for Azerbaijan

YEREVAN (Combined Sources)—One of Iran’s top clerics, Ayatollah Seyed Hassan Ameli, said that Iran supplied weapons and training to Afghan rebels who then fought on behalf of Azerbaijan during the Karabakh war. This comment has initiated mixed reactions in Armenia.

Armenia’s Defense Minister, Seyran Ohanian on Tuesday confirmed the Ayatollah’s statements saying that Afghan militants were fighting for Azerbaijan, a reality that was reported during the war.

“Afghan militants were definitely in the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh at a certain time,” Ohanian said commenting on reports by Iranian sources.

“They were withdrawn within the framework of different agreements and suffered huge losses as a result of the professional action of the Karabakh side,” added Ohanian.

Meanwhile officials at Iran’s Embassy in Yerevan said they did not want unreliable information to impact the friendly Armenian-Iranian relations.

The embassy neither confirmed, nor refuted Ayatollah Ameli’s statement, saying that the official stance of Tehran on the Karabakh conflict resolution has been articulated and voiced Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, as well as the Iranian Ambassador to Armenia Seyed Ali Saghaeyan.

“We do not rule out the possibility that there are forces that aim create obstacles for our friendly relations,” an Iranian Embassy official said.

http://asbarez.com/95788/top-iran-cl...for-azerbaijan

The issue is if Iranians knew those Afghans were fighting in Karabakh or not - which realistically they would know. Plus, why doesn't the Embassy just reject the claims made by this cleric if they are indeed false? Maybe there is some truth to it, that's why there are not taking a position?

[Federate]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Correct me if i'm wrong but did the other sources not claim that Iran gave weapons to Azerbaijan directly? Asbarez is reporting that Hassan Ameli said that they gave Afghan rebels the weapons who then went to fight in Azerbaijan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top Iran Cleric Says Afghan Rebels Fought for Azerbaijan

YEREVAN (Combined Sources)—One of Iran’s top clerics, Ayatollah Seyed Hassan Ameli, said that Iran supplied weapons and training to Afghan rebels who then fought on behalf of Azerbaijan during the Karabakh war. This comment has initiated mixed reactions in Armenia.

Armenia’s Defense Minister, Seyran Ohanian on Tuesday confirmed the Ayatollah’s statements saying that Afghan militants were fighting for Azerbaijan, a reality that was reported during the war.

“Afghan militants were definitely in the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh at a certain time,” Ohanian said commenting on reports by Iranian sources.

“They were withdrawn within the framework of different agreements and suffered huge losses as a result of the professional action of the Karabakh side,” added Ohanian.

Meanwhile officials at Iran’s Embassy in Yerevan said they did not want unreliable information to impact the friendly Armenian-Iranian relations.

The embassy neither confirmed, nor refuted Ayatollah Ameli’s statement, saying that the official stance of Tehran on the Karabakh conflict resolution has been articulated and voiced Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, as well as the Iranian Ambassador to Armenia Seyed Ali Saghaeyan.

“We do not rule out the possibility that there are forces that aim create obstacles for our friendly relations,” an Iranian Embassy official said.

http://asbarez.com/95788/top-iran-cleric-says-afghan-rebels-fought-for-azerbaijan

[Eddo211]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

I think I did say in another post a while ago that the best thing this forum could do for Armenia would be to close itself down.

But the forum doesn't exist to do the best for Armenia (even though, ironically, those here who do the worst damage to Armenia's reputation seem to think it does).

Last I checked jinglebells Hyeclub is a social website, not the mouthpeace for Armenia......it seems from other members posts that you are not welcomed here and I don't want to see this forum closed, so SCAT.

@Persopolis
I don't think any reasonable Persian will pass judgement on Armenian/Persian relationship for the few, and you shoudn't as well.