Iranian-Armenian relations

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

in ancient times Nakhichevan was important route from east to west, but now it's isolated, deserted and in decay. Its fertile land is limited, it doesn't have any bright future. Why give a xxxx about it?

Because it can turn into a staging ground for attacking Armenia. Do you know what they stopped making? Land. Do you know what adds value? Scarcity. I could go on ..., but even a desert has value.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

It's true they did a land swap - If I'm not mistaken, the Kurds were making trouble slightly south of there so they exchanged something like 7 km north for 7 km south; the other reason was that the USSR at that time was threatening Iran and Turkey was a strategic ally (blame Stalin).

Would you please stop repeating this myth.

That "exchange" of land (Turkey demanded and got all of the eastern side of little Ararat from Iran, Iran got a few worthless Kurdish villages in return) has nothing to do with the land border between Turkey and Nakhchivan.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Would you please stop repeating this myth.

* In 1828 Armenian political groups went along with plans for Russia to annex Armenia into its sphere of influence, and it resulted in the the treaty of Turkmanchai after conflict between Russia and Iran (and what is believed to have been a puppet leader in Iran at the time paid off by Russia). Iranians exiled that leader and killed the Russian ambassador. Nevertheless, Armenia effectively became a part of Russia and Armenian political leaders at the time went along with Russia's designs (history has shown that to be a mistake).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...urkmanchai.jpg

* With the communist revolution in Russia, Armenian subsequently became the Armenia-SSR (part of the USSR). In December 1920 Armenia became Armenia-SSR, when the Soviets took over control of the short-lived Democratic Republic of Armenia and Armenia-SSR lasted until 1991.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia...alist_Republic

* Stalin was Iran's mortal enemy and had clear designs on Iranian land; Iranian choices during the USSR phase reflect that dynamic.

* What history has shown is that prior to Armenia falling into the Russian sphere of influence, Armenian land was much greater in size and it had Persia (a historical ally that protected Armenians from countless attempts to eradicate them prior to the AG and a natural ally against Turkish invasion). When Armenia fell into the Russian sphere of influence, that's when it lost most of its land and the Armenian Genocide took place. Armenians' greatest position in modern history, derives from when it was affiliated with Iran. Even post-USSR, it's clear that Iran has contributed to Armenia's survival. These are facts, not opinions.

The maps and treaties tell the story of how Armenia found itself with the border issues it's facing today: Iran's responsibility to Armenia ended in 1828. Quite honestly, it is Armenia's pure luck to have Iranian support after its 180-year adventure with Russia/USSR.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

.......In 1828

It seems you adopt the Armenian way of never being seen to be wrong - i.e., post a lot of off-topic material to try and avoid your mistake.

I'll put it plainer - will you withdraw your implied agreement with the inacurate assertion made by Tigranakert that the Turkish border with Nakhchivan is a result of Iran giving territory to Turkey?

I'n not going to waste my time asking Tigranakert to withdraw his assertion - this border issue has been discussed before and he is a person who doesn't let little things like facts come in the way of myths and dogma.

[Armanen]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Bell, you have not shared why Iran and turkey swapped lands in Nakhichevan.

Persopolis, had it not been for the bolshevik revolution, Armenia would be much larger now. Imperial Russian troops with Armenian volunteers and irregulars had retaken much of Western Armenia by 1916-1917, they were well on their way to Bitlis and other Armenian towns in Western Armenia.

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Bell, you have not shared why Iran and turkey swapped lands in Nakhichevan.

Persopolis, had it not been for the bolshevik revolution, Armenia would be much larger now. Imperial Russian troops with Armenian volunteers and irregulars had retaken much of Western Armenia by 1916-1917, they were well on their way to Bitlis and other Armenian towns in Western Armenia.

yeah Bolsheviks sold us, not to mention them using "divide and conquer" by giving our lands to Azeris.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

I'll put it plainer - will you withdraw your implied agreement with the inacurate assertion made by Tigranakert that the Turkish border with Nakhchivan is a result of Iran giving territory to Turkey?

I simply state the facts I come across and am aware of: I put up the pertinent maps and treaties - those are facts. If there's something you want to add to what Tigranakert or anyone else wrote, who is stopping you?

Let me help you -- complete this sentence: "Dear Tigranakert, in relation to your post, I came across this information ...."

Simply add in your information, and drop a citation - who is stopping you? The purpose of a dialogue is to learn from each other.

________________________
CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER:
In 1821-1823 the Ottomans tried to invade Iran. In 1828 Russia took advantage of the situation and took control of Armenia (with the aid of some Armenian politicians and the worst leader Iran has ever had who was on the British/Russian payroll). In 1917 the Bolsheviks took over Russia. In 1927, in response to the Bolshevik revolution and Kurdish separatist issues being stirred-up by the USSR, Turkey and Iran swapped small parcels of land. However, at that date all of Armenia was already in Russian/USSR hands. The damage to Armenia was what happened after Armenia was in Russian/USSR hands (see 2nd map). If you look at the times that Armenia was in Iran's sphere of influence, those lands were huge and Armenians were very prosperous. (see 3rd map). In my opinion history teaches a big lesson: Strong Iran = Strong Armenia. Throughout history, Iran has protected Armenia from literally being eaten alive by the Ottomans, Khazars (present day Daghestan & leadership of Azerbaijan) & the Mongols. Within the last 5-10 years things have again changed for Iran: Iran is again in control of Southern Iraq and the Herat Province in Afghanistan.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

... 3rd map continued from previous post:


P.S. "Albania" is the wrong word for the province above - It was called "Arran" -- Also 'Ossetians,' is not what they call themselves: They call themselves "Iron" (Iranians).

NOTES:
See Bell, Imogen. Eastern Europe, Russia and Central Asia, p. 200.
See Mirsky, Georgiy I. On Ruins of Empire: Ethnicity and Nationalism in the Former Soviet Union, p. 28.
SeeMastyugina, Tatiana. An Ethnic History of Russia: Pre-revolutionary Times to the Present, p. 80.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

I simply state the facts I come across and am aware of: I put up the pertinent maps and treaties - those are facts. If there's something you want to add to what Tigranakert or anyone else wrote, who is stopping you?

That's the problem: it is all things you "came across" on the internet (not the best place to find information to just copypaste into posts) - I've a feeling your actual core knowledge is a bit thin, too thin for you to be blindly using the internet as a source. Don't present things you find online as facts unless YOU know for certain that they are facts.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Bell, you have not shared why Iran and turkey swapped lands in Nakhichevan.

Iran and Turkey NEVER swapped land in Nakhchivan, and NEVER swapped land to let Turkey have a land border with Nakhchivan.