Ataturks statue in Israel

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Benevolent Dictator had some chart success in the 80s but Enlightened Despot fell out with their record label during their debut world tour.

Wow for real?

It would be good for a song name I will be supporter:P

Awww, thanks

[Steph]

Wow for real?




Awww, thanks

Gotta love ya Pedro!

[Eti]

Ardakilic: When was it genocide or massacre to stop rebellions? You call defensive reflexes “massacres.” So I don’t agree with you on this whatever you tell more.

So, let me give some examples from history:

Those acts that you mentioned were something that more justifiable than Europeans did to the Indians of North America or in Africa, or in India etc... And something that more justifiable that people of Spain or Portugal did to Aztecs, Mayas or Inkas… to all native Americans of North and South America. There are alot of newer examples in Europe too, no need to tell them. But you probably have some reasons to acquit them or to prove them to be right, because, they paid whatever they did, so everything is so good with those Europeans who did a lot of massacres all around the world, but again, they paid for it, MONEY and EXCUSES. Money and excuses solved their problems?...(!) Saying that “those nations are having their better times is another baloney again.” This is also ridiculous for me too. As you see there are a lot of ridiculous things happened and happen on this world.

Steph compared Turkey with Germany, but he forgot some important things: Before being democracy, Germany, as one of the western countries, did a lot of more proggress through the history than Turkey. The important ones, that made Germany one of the most developed countries, are: The influence of Renaissance that started in Italy and the influence of Rationalism Period of 17th century and the “Industrial Revolution in 19th century.” in west European countries. After Germany had all of these proggresses, you can’t compare her with Ottoman Empire or Turkey. And these are also the things that Ataturk wanted to do in a short time.

And by the way, as related to the third paragraph, I also want to tell the other ways how The Western Civilizations and Democracies are formed:

“Before being democracy, they first entered the third world countries, second killed the people and colonized their lands, then after being democracy, they said “pardon” and withdrew, but have continued the job in a different way to keep making benefit of them stealthily, even today.” So they have just made the democracy for themselves and carried out it in their own countries.

Alexandros: Ataturk has nothing to do with such laws that was made after he died. I am sure such laws was made after he passed away. Suppose Ataturk’s statue or tomb is something holy. In fact it is holy for many people and also there are many people who like to destroy something related to Ataturk. Such laws were made by rightist political parties to which I have always had objections.

And Pedro I agree with you on your ideas except a few petty ones.

[Alexandros]

Originally Posted by Eti
Alexandros: Ataturk has nothing to do with such laws that was made after he died. I am sure such laws was made after he passed away. Suppose Ataturk’s statue or tomb is something holy. In fact it is holy for many people and also there are many people who like to destroy something related to Ataturk. Such laws were made by rightist political parties to which I have always had objections.

Don`t know if I understood you correctly.You are against the laws or the rightist political parties?

[Sako]

You are making me tell the same thing again: A nation can not be responsible for such a thing, but leaders. This is not my opinion, this is legally, ethically and politically accepted on all around the world that is universally.

Leaders decide / plan and do and the mass groups of people follow thier leaders and do it blindly, without thinking, it is a social instinct. Hitler made the most of the Germans believe in his ideas and dreams. This is shocking and hard to understand today, but they followed him blindly. I am sure most of them then realized that what a big mistake they did.

Only if it was this simple, Eti. A rough example, yeah? If a person wants to commit a crime and many other people who are innocent join him and rob people, kill them, rape them, etc., does the court only put the leader in jail or also all those that joined in? No excuses will be heard whatsoever. A person who kills and the person who provides the gun to him to kill gets equal blame.

So, to be denier is always the easiest and safer way for a criminal. Westerners or someone who has been grown up in a western culture, have the difficulties to understand this.

Trust me, we have NO difficulties in understanding this, LOL. We’ve had a great first hand opportunity to understand this for centuries.

Show me an example of execution that Ataturk did, except the execution of some extremist muslims during the liberation war from 1919 to 1922. During a war or a revolutionary war, it is inevitable to do such things, as it was done in French, Russian revolution or any other less important revolutions or movements or during so-called revolution that happened in Iran.

But it’s wrong, nonetheless, no one says Russia, Germany, etc. were all right and Turkey was wrong alone but Turkey is continuing its mistake till now.

Especially the elites of big western countries loved to introduce the communist leaders as executioners and dictators. This was a one of the political pronunciations for their advantages on the world or in their countries. It is a very easy way to accuse Ataturk of being dictator, executioner etc. In today’s Turkey there are people who like to do so.

Do you know that there are so many people even in Armenia (the older generation) who still look at Lenin and Stalin as a great man? They were dictators and they killed millions of people, broke families, threw away so many dreams, so many smiles. They were demons not dictators so don’t you even THINK of saying what you’re saying now, again. The west was right in calling them dictators and everything, THAT’S what they were and they will always remain that way. There are many even today. Ataturk was one of them.

It is a very easy way to accuse Ataturk of being dictator, executioner etc. In today’s Turkey there are people who like to do so.

It is not an accusation my friend, he was dictator. Maybe you can call him benevolent dictator (or enlightened despot) or maybe you can call him, like me, simply a dictator, but he was dictator. It is so simple; read the definition, look at the events and match.

Eti, get to the point. What’re you trying to say? What’re you saying, Ataturk was a jolly president?

Your posts don't directly deny the Genocide but you seem to attempt to minimise it, marginalise it, excuse it even. Is this to make it more easy for you to accept, based on the information drummed into to you by the state?

Quoted for truth, I’ve been saying the same thing.

Such events like Armenian genocide can not be inherited, the only thing that Turkey can do is to try to compansate it in some ways, but this will not be like Germans did I think. There are differences between the two events, to say that "they are simply genocides" is wrong.

You are the strangest believer I have ever met, Eti and your view is completely mixed up.

I was talking about events of 1915, so during the WW I, Ottoman Empire was fighting in a few fronts, in west, east and south and there were also wars of Çanakkale in 1915, so it is impossible to say that 90% percent of the army involved in AG. Of course a part of it involved.

Well, just enough to wipe out a race, how many do you think that would be?

You expect that Turkey should act like Germany, France etc. However, you forget that (although a lot of difficulities) Turkey has almost 90 years historical past and is still trying to be a democracy since 1948, to set up a more democratic system. This takes a lot of time, so you have to wait a few decades more.

Sorry to be rude bro but do you think everyone cares?

[Edoman]

I think it was on this thread that someone brought up the similarities of the Genocide of Armenians and Jews. It is true. The Armenian genocide is similar to the Holocaust in some respects. First of all both people adhere to an ancient religion and both were religious minorities of their respective states. Both had a history of persecution. Both were separated, tagged and marched off to their deaths (even though more Jews died by Germans compared to the Armenians however did not suffer as bad before their death). Both were talented and creative minorities who have been persecuted out of envy, obscurantism. Both now have new democracies and enemies that surround them both.
However we are nothing like Jews. Armenians have always believed in live and let live but be aware, we will fight if you start hurting our people.

[ardakilic]

Ardakilic: When was it genocide or massacre to stop rebellions? You call defensive reflexes “massacres.” So I don’t agree with you on this whatever you tell more.

Isn't it the same logic what happened to Armenians? "Armenians rebelled and Ittihadists quashed". But what makes these people rebel if so?

Those acts that you mentioned were something that more justifiable than Europeans did to the Indians of North America or in Africa, or in India etc... And something that more justifiable that people of Spain or Portugal did to Aztecs, Mayas or Inkas… to all native Americans of North and South America. There are alot of newer examples in Europe too, no need to tell them.

This is completely "tu quoqe" fallacy.

But you probably have some reasons to acquit them or to prove them to be right, because, they paid whatever they did, so everything is so good with those Europeans who did a lot of massacres all around the world, but again, they paid for it, MONEY and EXCUSES. Money and excuses solved their problems?...(!)

You put some words on my mouth but i didnot claim that. I mean what i say, no less no more.

5816 is just a drop in the ocean... I donot mean whatever done behalf of M. Kemal, i am mentioning what exactly M. Kemal did. You suppose DP is a rightist party, it can be discussable but this is not the problem. What the problem is, CHP is the most extreme rightist party in Turkey, coming from a tradition, maybe not directly, but sharing the same ideological perspective with the Ittihadists.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Interesting

Gotta love ya Pedro!

I have my moments lol
And I should rake in my compliments I get few, usually they are partially
insulting (like below I am in possesion of good points, but I'm petty so...)


Those acts that you mentioned were something that more justifiable than Europeans did to the Indians of North America or in Africa, or in India etc... And something that more justifiable that people of Spain or Portugal did to Aztecs, Mayas or Inkas… to all native Americans of North and South America. There are alot of newer examples in Europe too, no need to tell them. But you probably have some reasons to acquit them or to prove them to be right, because, they paid whatever they did, so everything is so good with those Europeans who did a lot of massacres all around the world, but again, they paid for it, MONEY and EXCUSES. Money and excuses solved their problems?...(!) Saying that “those nations are having their better times is another baloney again.” This is also ridiculous for me too. As you see there are a lot of ridiculous things happened and happen on this world.

As someone of that very descent (Aztecs are Nahuatl) I would like to ask you something, what premise did you think they gave to slaughter, their words were they needed to stop us rebelling and make us loyal servants to the Spanish Empire (New Spain), now replace for me Spanish with Ottoman and Aztec with Armenian, and you will quickly see a similarity :

Cortez took Moctezuma as a hostage in his own palace, requesting him to swear allegiance to Charles V.

Meanwhile, Velasquez sent another expedition, lead by Pánfilo de Narváez, to oppose Cortès, arriving in Mexico in April 1520 with 1,100 men. Cortés left 200 men in Tenochtitlan and took the rest to confront Narvaez. He overcame Narváez, despite his numerical inferiority, and convinced the rest of Narvaez's men to join him.In Mexico, one of Cortés' lieutenants Pedro de Alvarado, committed a massacre in the Main Temple, triggering a local rebellion. Cortés speedily returned to Mexico and proposed an armistice, attempting to support himself on Moctezuma, but the latter was stoned to death by his subjects on July 1, 1520, and Cortés decided to flee for Tlaxcala. During the Noche Triste (30 June-1st July 1520), the Spaniards managed a narrow escape from Tenochtitlan across the causeway, while their backguard was being massacred. Much of the treasure looted by Cortés was lost (as well as his artillery) during this panicked escape from Tenochtitlán. After a battle in Otumba, they managed to reach Tlaxcala, after having lost 870 men. With the assistance of their allies, Cortés' men finally prevailed with reinforcements arriving from Cuba. Cortés began a policy of attrition towards the island city of Tenochtitlán cutting off supplies and subduing the Aztecs' allied cities thus changing the balance, and organizing the siege of Tenochtitlán, destroying the city.

See a similiarity, the excuse for crushing our rebellion against illegal Spanish rule set off Hernan Cortez with a hernia, this led him to kill all and any who opposed him, he had many many many soldiers at his dispensal, they are as to blame for his actions as he is. Just like saying its fair to massacre a nation is like saying its fair what Hernan did to the Tabasco (not the sauce the people) for instance.

Now lets be honest the main reason for the Armenian Genocide stems back from about the late 1800s, groups like the dearrest xxxkurtler is principally the main example of this trend of stupidity, the CUP wanted a Pan Turanic Empire (cue dramatic music), so with Nazi like ideology coupled with the military of an empire they proceded to crush "rebellions" (like 3 year olds and women and the elderly) just like the friendly young men in the southwest (Aztlan) under the US when they proceded to kill Mexicans and Indians for "American progress" and to prevent "rebellion".

Now at a grand time, our colonisers were so sweet with us that if a white man killed a Native American (Nican Tlaca in our language) he was entitled to his property, notice oddly during the genocide how many of the Turkish/Ottoman military acquired recently "found" Armenian property.
Makes you think

“Before being democracy, they first entered the third world countries, second killed the people and colonized their lands, then after being democracy, they said “pardon” and withdrew, but have continued the job in a different way to keep making benefit of them stealthily, even today.” So they have just made the democracy for themselves and carried out it in their own countries.

I could be rude and say like the Ottoman empire did to Armenians, Arabs, Greeks, Kurds and Persians (and other Turks, the Alevis being a prime example)

[Sako]

Seriously, after reading all this, all I see is excuses. Let's get to the point people, leave Germany and everything to one side, please, it's for the better.

[Eti]

Okey my friends, we are on the same way but on different buses. So there aren’t big differences between us.

And so I don’t want to keep this discussion go further into some absurd arguments.

Saco, in fact, I really get your point of view. I love Armeninians, especially living in Armenia.

Ardakılıç, I also agree with you on most of the things, except Ataturk. But for me, of course, Ataturk is not mystic hero or an obscure miracle, he was just a much witted action man who wanted to create a modern state in a short time. This is of course so hard to do, especially for a single man but somehow he got through with this.

And Pedro, thank you so much for the info my friend.

hope see you on another discussion.