Ataturks statue in Israel

[Sako]

Hope to see you there as well, Eti, hope to see you there. We aren't in different buses though, we're on the same bus, just with a little bit of a misunderstanding. I hope we'll all be able to work together one day as a team.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Sorry to shamelessly plug

But this is why Saco's website idea that Saco, Edoman, Steph, Joseph and I are working is so revolutionary as it has a dialog between Turks and Armenians and there is no hatred, in fact one of the main aims is to create peace and friendship.

I agree that this discussion has gone a little towards the personal side,
being fair maybe Ataturk had some good policies some bad, thats my point, we wasn't Jesus or Mohammed or Abraham or Quetzalcoatl, he was merely a man, some of his ideas might have been gone, others bad, that why I am saying, its silly to relegate someone to near demigod status.
To me he had his good and bad points, just like Lenin or Stalin

[Sako]

I agree with Pedro and like I said, Ataturk was a person. I hate it when people turn others into idols. Stalin and Lenin were nothing less then monsters and of course they did their share of good too but commited so many worse attrocities, evaporating the fact that that they've done some good as well. I won't even talk about hitler.

I hope you understood truly what I was saying all this time, you didn't really reply to my post (I don't blame you, I write books instead of posts sometimes). It did get a bit personal, I just wanted everything to be clear as crystal. Excuses and all that shouldn't be in the conversation when we talk about the Genocide. There is nothing worse then making something feel smaller then it really was. This was unknowingly done so no harm there. I apologize if I said anything that offended anyone in any way at all and yeah, Pedro's right again, this new site could change a lot but we'll have to work together to get anything done, which we are, and more support means a stronger foundation. That's something worth fighting and using our energy for. Anyways, cheers everyone.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

As a total aside

Just to add something quickly regarding the treatment by conquistadors, Greek and Oriental Orthodox people were also targeted during the inquisitions :

King Ferdinand II of Aragon and Queen Isabella I of Castile set up the Spanish Inquisition in 1478 with the approval of Pope Sixtus IV. In contrast to the previous inquisitions, it operated completely under royal authority, though staffed by secular clergy and orders, and independently of the Holy See. It targeted primarily converts from Judaism (Marranos or secret Jews) and from Islam (Moriscos or secret Moors) — both formed large groups still residing in Spain after the end of the Moorish control of Spain — who came under suspicion of either continuing to adhere to their old religion (often after having converted under duress) or of having fallen back into it. Somewhat later the Spanish Inquisition took an interest in Protestants of virtually any sect, notably in the Spanish Netherlands. In the Spanish possessions of the Kingdom of Sicily and the Kingdom of Naples in southern Italy, which formed part of the Spanish Crown's hereditary possessions, it also targeted Greek Orthodox Christians. After the intensity of religious disputes waned in the 17th century, the Spanish Inquisition developed more and more into a secret-police force working against internal threats to the state.

Hence in the old Spanish empire, Turk, Armenian and Indian alike would have suffered the same brutal treatment

I guess the dude who explains this best is my friend Harut (Hayk Manukyan)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7XSowFLYWo

[ardakilic]

Ardakılıç, I also agree with you on most of the things, except Ataturk. But for me, of course, Ataturk is not mystic hero or an obscure miracle, he was just a much witted action man who wanted to create a modern state in a short time. This is of course so hard to do, especially for a single man but somehow he got through with this.

What i entirely reject is that my firend. You summarized the two points that i really object:

i) M. Kemal was not a "lonely civilizateur", not a "creator of nation". Some people are deamonized just because in order to make him hero. For example, Kazim Karabekir. Remember the Izmir Asasination conspiarcy. Just he didnt want to see any competitor, any opponent. I call this argument as "Lonely Man".

ii) Second point of my objection is that "modernization" tale. As i repeat once, in 1908 Ottoman Empire was much more democratic than the era of Kemal; also much more modern. Yes i know, modern is very tricky notion but we can talk some concrete issues about modernnization.

I wish i could tell my points.

[Sako]

Arda, your welcome to tell your points, I see no problem and I also see what your trying to say. I wish I could be of more help regarding your point though, gotta read up.

[Steph]

I wish i could tell my points.

Please make your points Arda, the platform's yours!

[Pedro Xaramillo]

More Ataturk stuff worldwide :

n 1981, the centennial of Atatürk's birth, the memory of Atatürk was honored by the United Nations and UNESCO, which declared it The Atatürk Year in the World and adopted the Resolution on the Atatürk Centennial. The Atatürk Memorial in Wellington, New Zealand (which also serves as a memorial to the ANZAC troops who died at Gallipoli); the Atatürk Memorial in the place of honour on ANZAC drive in Canberra, Australia; the Atatürk Forest in Israel; and the Atatürk Square in Rome, Italy, are only a few examples. He has roads named after him in several countries, like the Kemal Atatürk Marg in New Delhi, India, Kemal Atatürk Avenue in Dhaka, Bangladesh, the Atatürk Avenue in the heart of Islamabad in Pakistan, and Mustafá Kemal Atatürk street in the central and upscale Naco district of Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. His statues have been erected in numerous parks, streets and squares of many different countries in the world. The famous Madame Tussauds Museum in London has a wax statue of Atatürk. The entrance to Princess Royal Harbour in Albany, Western Australia is named Atatürk Channel.

[Sako]

What was he trying to do, get in the Guinnes World Records? Greatest number of statues world wide.

[ardakilic]

Foreign Affairs Minister of USA, Henry Kissinger, in the funeral of FBI manager J. Edgar Hoover in 1972, said: "We, as Jewish community, had established two states in 20th century. One is Israel, and the other is Turkey".

I do NOT mean a typical rubbish "Jewish conspriacy" 'theory', just stating a fact. It doesnot make sense for me why Kissinger said this...