Let us all reason, for the well being of humanity.

[RookieArcher]

winoman calls me with the following:
a s s e h o l e
D i c k h e a d!
f u c k i n g chump
RookieDeniar

This is the general attitude of a panicker who, somehow, was able to portray himself as intelligent long time. He started panicking because he actually knows how this fable was devised and how it could be crumbled, becaouse he was also -according to someone here- one of the deviser of the "KosovoGenocide, that never happened. Like that of ArmenianGenocide. that never happened.

[winoman]

First of all - I had nothing to do withKosovo - but your willingness to believe anything you here to justify your pre-concieved beliefs is telling. Secondly - you fully deserve the insults and more - third - no panic - perhaps exaseperation as I really don't wish to waste my time on you - I mean really here you have shown that you already have made up your mind and (falsly) claim that there was no Armenian Genocide. How coudl I possibly think to discuss somethign with someone who cannot obvioulsy read or reason?

[Anonymouse]

winoman calls me with the following:
a s s e h o l e
D i c k h e a d!
f u c k i n g chump
RookieDeniar

This is the general attitude of a panicker who, somehow, was able to portray himself as intelligent long time. He started panicking because he actually knows how this fable was devised and how it could be crumbled, becaouse he was also -according to someone here- one of the deviser of the "KosovoGenocide, that never happened. Like that of ArmenianGenocide. that never happened.

You obviously do not realize the illogistics of your position. You claim you only know the Turkish side, yet go on to call Armenians brainwashed all the while you admitted not knowing both sides. If that ain't ignorance I know not what is. You do understand the futility of even responding to you. The only one that is panicking would be you, for after all, if you are so convinced of the truth for "your side" which you claimed is the only side you know, then why are you here justifying yourself and trying to tell Armenians what they believe is a lie? It seems to me your insecurities are getting the better of you and you must come here to reinforce your faith in "your side". After all, the great democratic Republic of Turkey is such a democratic country that they have to have laws in place to prevent people to even refer to the Armenian Genocide. Now we know why you only know the Turkish side.

[TomServo]

winoman calls me with the following:
a s s e h o l e
D i c k h e a d!
f u c k i n g chump
RookieDeniar

This is the general attitude of a panicker who, somehow, was able to portray himself as intelligent long time. He started panicking because he actually knows how this fable was devised and how it could be crumbled, becaouse he was also -according to someone here- one of the deviser of the "KosovoGenocide, that never happened. Like that of ArmenianGenocide. that never happened.

Aww, I thought you wanted to learn. Now you're just being a denialist. I will now replace you with toki.

[winoman]

I am here just "to learn" what the Turks & Armenians think about "the subject".

...

I would like to learn the "story" from u guys.

...

I need your oppinions.

...

Thanks for posts in advance.

Considering that he now has stated several times categorically that there was no Armenain Genocide - and even though he has admitted complete ignorance of the "Armenian side" - he accuses us of being brainwashed - and so on and so forth - I think I can categorically say that I've rarely seen such a case of lying and misrepresentation as this before. If indeed this rookiedenier is at all concerned with truth he would bother to read and learn a bit concerning the documented facts and not soley rely on highly questionable Turkish provided denials and false and exxagerated countercharges. And until this time I don't feel that I need to defend my positions against poor propoganda. I would say that I have provided enough evidence (and links to such) for at least an honest person to begin to read and understand.

[RookieArcher]

winoman-
I mean really here you have shown that you already have made up your mind and (falsly) claim that there was no Armenian Genocide.

I dont see any diffirence between you and me. You also made up your mind.
"Genovide happened. its not negotiable."

If you read the Turkish side of story you would understand that Turkey accepts that "there was a relocetion verdict, it was applied pooryl because of lack of recources, wartime misfortunes, intercommunal hatred, at the and causing the misery of many Armenians."

Genocide is an action done with the intention of annihilating a race/group/nation. What Turkish government is saying is the intention and the action was not aimed to annihilate armeninas. Otherwise we would not ask western relief organisations and missionary organisations to take care of armenians where the government is incapable of.

winoman-
Considering that he now has stated several times categorically that there was no Armenain Genocide - and even though he has admitted complete ignorance of the "Armenian side" - he accuses us of being brainwashed - and so on and so forth - I think I can categorically say that I've rarely seen such a case of lying and misrepresentation as this before.

I only know you fullheartedly belive that there is an ArmenianGenocide, i want to learn the reasons for this belief/brainwashing.

winoman-
First of all - I had nothing to do withKosovo

I understand you. Because it is a study case: how genocide fables are invented. Unluckiness of Turkey was winning the war in Anatolia against colonization after wwi.

You are in a position to understand how wartime propaganda machine works to invent never-happened genocides,just for political reasons.

winoman-
Educate yourself a bit first

Even neutral words like education represents your set of mind. Educating myself is learning by heart/memorizing Armenian fables, without asking questions, without judging.

You are one of the inventors of KosovoGenocide, now tell me, what would happen if all those Kosovans in Macedonian/Albanian camps were not able to return back and scattered around the world? Answer this hypotetical question, you intelligent propaganda deviser.

You dont have a brain enough to see what would happen?

I want to hear your answer.

[Red Brigade]

Those guys beleive that the Sumerian Civilization is part of the Turkish History.They think that Armenia didnt even exist as an independent state 100 years before.Those people call Kurds as Mountainous Turks.
Now these individuals are the same guys which deny the self evident Genocide.
They don't even have knowledge for their own Turkish History , let alone to know if the Armenian Genocide existed or not.The Armenian Genocide has been already prooved from the vast majority of the historians.I suggest nobody continue this ridiculous conversation , there is no point to talk with fools .

[winoman]

Rookiedenier - First - it is not I who advocate that it was a Genocide and that what Turkey (and you) are engaged in is denial - but the academic community as a whole (outside of the paid Turkish denilaist so-called scholars that I have posted in regards to their direct funding and support by the Turkish government). That you accuse me (and Armenians) of being brainwashed (and say that I am the same as you - as if you have any idea what I know and how...) is quite a laugh considering the position you have staked out and what you are advocating. Read a bit and get educated...


"The Turkish denial [of the Armenian Genocide] is probably the foremost example of historical perversion. With a mix of academic sophistication and diplomatic thuggery -- of which we at Macquarie University have been targets -- the Turks have put both memory and history into reverse gear."

-- Prof. Colin Tatz, Director,
Centre for Comparative Genocide Studies
(Centre for Genocide Studies Newsletter,
(December 1995-January 1996))


"The nearest successful example [of collective denial] in the modern era is the 80 years of official denial by successive Turkish governments of the 1915-17 genocide against the Armenians in which 1.5 million people lost their lives. This denial has been sustained by deliberate propaganda, lying and coverups, forging documents, suppression of archives, and bribing scholars."

-- Stanley Cohen, Professor of Criminology,
Hebrew University, Jerusalem
(Law and Social Inquiry vol. 20, no. 1 (Winter 1995): 7, 50)


Roger Smith (Professor Emeritus at the College of William and Mary in Virginia, where he taught courses in political philosophy and the comparative study of genocide. Educated at Harvard and the University of California, Berkeley, Smith has written widely on the nature, history, and the possibilities of preventing genocide.) - Sept 01 2004:

I think that a precondition for reconciliation in any genocide is a shared, accepted historical account. But this is lacking with Turks and Armenians, both at the State level and the individual level. The issues have little to do with actual history: rather Turkish denial and the rewriting of history involve a defense of Turkish self-image and political concerns.A mythological history would have to be replaced; but identity has been built on this history; change would have disturbing effects, leading to confusion and questioning the very legitimacy of the state. But in the long term, this is the only way Turkey can master its past; the acknowledgment of the Genocide will, if it comes, coincide with a greater democratization of Turkey, and with a more open and pluralistic society. We will know that Turkey has come close to democracy when its citizens can openly discuss what was done in 1915 and how it has been denied and covered up for 90 years.

Dr. Robert F. Melson -Professor of Political Science - Purdue University - 14 Sep 2000:

The Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust are the quintessential instances of total genocide in the 20th century. In both instances a deliberate attempt was made by the government of the day to destroy in part or in whole an ethno-religious community of ancient provenance that had existed as a segment of the government's own society. In both instances genocide was perpetrated after the fall of an old regime and during the reign of a revolutionary movement that was motivated by an ideology of social, political, and cultural transformation. And in both cases genocides occurred in the midst of world wars.

The perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide were motivated by a variant of nationalist ideology, the victims were a territorial ethnic group that had sought autonomy, and the methods of destruction included massacre, forced deportations, and starvation.

...in the 19th century the Armenians challenged the traditional hierarchy of Ottoman society, as they became better educated, wealthier, and more urban. In response, despite attempts at reforms, the empire became more represssive, and Armenians, more than any other Christian minority, bore the brunt of persecution.

In the first instance, the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP), the political organization formed by the Young Turks, attempted radically to transform the regime following liberal and democratic principles that had been embodied in the earlier constitution of 1876. ...Concluding that their liberal experiment had been a failure, the CUP leaders turned to Pan-Turkism, a xenophobic and chauvinistic brand of nationalism that sought to create a new empire based on Islam and Turkish ethnicity. This new empire, stretching from Anatolia to western China would exclude minorities or grant them nominal rights unless they became Turks by nationality and Muslim by religion.

This dramatic shift in ideology and identity, from Ottoman pluralism to an integral form of Turkish nationalism, had profound implications for the emergence of modern Turkey. At the same time Pan-Turkism had tragic consequences for Ottoman minorities, most of all for the Armenians. From being once viewed as a constituent millet of the Ottoman regime, they suddenly were stereotyped as an alien nationality. Their situation became especially dangerous because of their territorial concentration in eastern Anatolia on the border with Russia, Turkey's traditional enemy. Thus the Armenians, at one and the same time, were accused of being in league with Russia against Turkey and of claiming Anatolia, the heartland of the projected Pan-Turkic state.

This was the situation even before the First World War. When war broke out, however, the Young Turks led especially by Enver joined the German side in an anti-Russian alliance that would allow the Pan-Turkists to build their state at Russia's expense. It was in this context of revolutionary and ideological transformation and war that the fateful decision to destroy the Armenians was taken.

By February 1915 Armenians serving in the Ottoman army were turned into labor battalions and either worked to death or killed. By April that same year the remaining civilians were deported from eastern Anatolia and Cilicia, in an early form of "ethnic cleansing," toward the deserts near Aleppo. The lines of Armenian deportees were set upon again and again by Turkish and Kurdish villagers who were often incited and led by specially designated killing squads, Teshkilat-i Makhsusiye, that had been organized by members of the CUP. Those who escaped massacre were very likely to perish of famine on the way. In this manner, between 1915 and the armistice in 1918, some one million people, out of a population of two million, were killed. Later a half million more Armenians perished as Turkey sought to free herself of foreign occupation and to expel minorities. Thus between 1915 and 1923, approximately three quarters of the Armenian population was destroyed in the Ottoman Empire.



A Turk Minister of Interior (after Talat) - Mustafa Arif stated:

"Surely a few Armenians aided and abetted our enemy, and a few Armenian Deputies committed crimes against the Turkish nation... it is incumbent upon a government to pursue the guilty ones. Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that could surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians, and they did "


DR. MARTIN NIEPAGE (A German eyewitness at Aleppo):

“After I had informed myself about the facts and had made enquiries on all sides, I came to the conclusion that all these accusations against the Armenians were, in fact, based on trifling provocations, which were taken as an excuse for slaughtering 10,000 innocents for one guilty person, for the most savage outrages against women and children, and for a campaign of starvation against the exiles which was intended to exterminate the whole nation. “


Dr. Yair Auron (Senior Lecturer in the field of contemporary Judaism and genocide at the Open University of Israel. He has been researching in the area of indifference and denial since the early 1990s) - April 2003:

The Turkish slaughter of the Armenians during 1915-16 was one of the most horrible deeds of modern time.

Professor Dr. Johannes Lepsius - Berlin 1921 (testimony given at the trial of Solohmon Tehlirian):

The plan for the deportation of the Armenians was decided upon by the Young Turk Committee. On this Committee were Talaat Pasha as the Minister of the Interior and Enver Pasha as the Minister of War. Talaat gave the orders and, with the help of the Young Turk Committee, implemented the plan.

In a document signed by Talaat Pasha we find the following statement: "The destination of the deportation is annihilation." These orders were carried out to the letter.
Pursuant to this order, of all the Armenians who were deported from Eastern Anatolia southward, only ten percent reached their destination; the remaining ninety percent were killed, except for women and girls who were sold by the gendarmes or were abducted by the Kurds or died of exhaustion and hunger.
Of those Armenians who were driven to the edge of the desert from Western Anatolia, Cilicia, and northern Assyria, a sizable number, reaching into the hundreds of thousands, was assembled into camps. These groups were systematically starved and periodically massacred.
When more groups of Armenians were brought to the stations and there was no room to keep them, they were taken in groups into the desert and slaughtered.

The official government explanation for the deportation was that these were precautionary measures. However, authoritative individuals blatantly declared that their purpose was to annihilate the whole Armenian population.
What I have just said is supported by the official documents of the German Foreign Office, as well as the documents of the German Embassy in Constantinople and documents of German Consuls

One would have to ask the following question: How is it possible to kill millions of people in such a short time?
This was possible in the most savage of conditions, as was brought out during the proceedings of the Military Tribunal set up in Constantinople to try Talaat and his comrades and associates. The Court consisted of a Division Commander, as its president, three generals, prominent during the war, and a captain. Of the five charges brought against the Young Turks, the first dealt with the Armenian massacres. On July 6, 1919, the Military Tribunal pronounced a guilty verdict, sentencing to death the leading perpetrators of the genocide — Talaat, Enver, Jemal and Dr. Nazim.
The responsibility of carrying out the orders for the massacres was left to the Valis [governors-general of the provinces], Mutasarrifs (governor of the provinces], and Kaymakams [governors of the districts]. Those officials who refused to carry out the orders were immediately relieved of their duties. For example, Jelal Pasha, who was the Governor of vilayet of Aleppo, refused to carry out the orders for deportation. He was relieved by direct orders of Talaat and sent westward to Konya. He behaved in the same manner there. He refused to obey the orders and in fact helped the Armenians, protecting those who remained and the deportees as well. He was again relieved of his duties, but this time he was not given another government position. He was one of the most widely known and fair Valis Turkey had. Another governor, Rashid Bey of the vilayet of Diyarbekir, executed two subprefects who refused to carry out the orders. These orders not only affected government officials, but Turkish citizens as well. The Commander of the Third Division issued an order that any Turk found assisting an Armenian would be shot in front of his house, and the house burned to the ground. Any government officials found helping Armenians would be relieved of their posts and tried before a military tribunal for their crimes.

I was in Constantinople in 1913 and I could see that the Young Turks were enraged that the European Powers again kept talking about reforms for the Armenians. They were all the more disturbed when, thanks to the agreement between Germany and Russia, this issue was settled to the satisfaction of the Armenians. The Young Turks said: If you Armenians do not denounce these reforms, something will happen that will make Abdul Hamid's actions look like child's play. The leaders of both groups had become friends and helped each other out during the elections. During the first few months of the war, relations between them seemed amicable until the evening of April 24, 1915 when, to the complete surprise of everyone in Constantinople, 235 Armenian intellectuals were arrested, jailed, and then sent to Asia Minor. During the next few days, a couple hundred more were added. Altogether 600 people were involved. Of this group only 15 survived. Practically all of the Armenian intellectual leaders in Constantinople were wiped out in this manner. A member of Parliament, Vartkes, a close personal friend of Talaat, had still remained exempt. He went to Talaat and asked him what was happening. Talaat's answer was: "While we were weak, your people pushed for reforms and were a thorn in our side; now we are going to take advantage of our favorable situation and disperse your people so that it will take you 50 years before you talk again about reforms." Vartkes answered, appropriately enough, "Then it follows that the work of Abdul Hamid is to be continued?" Talaat answered, "Yes."
Their deeds surpassed their boasts. The evidence brought out during the trials held by the Turkish Court-martial in Constantinople, and corresponding to the report published in the official Turkish journal Takvim-i-vekayi, shows that the deportation was decided upon by the Young Turk Committee and that Talaat was the most influential member of the Committee. In fact, he was its very soul. He ordered the annihilation and did nothing to prevent it.
It is also possible to submit official written proof based on German and Turkish documents.

[winoman]

Tanar Ackam - one of the very view Turkish historians worthy of the title

THE GENOCIDE OF THE ARMENIANS AND THE SILENCE OF THE TURKS.
Taner Akgam

(selected exerpts)

The genocide of the Armenians has been a taboo topic for us Turks for eighty years.

If, for example, we examine the arguments that are being advanced with regard to the Kurds, we can recognize evidence of the surprising degree to which the state of mind, the model of thinking that dominated in the decade after 1910, persists today.

Turkish nationalism was strongly influenced by Social Darwinism and racist ideologies. This intellectual background of Turkish nationalism, combined with the urgent need to catch up, made that nationalism aggressive. Turkish nationalism arose as a reaction to the experience of constant humiliations. Turkish national sentiment constantly suffered from the effects of an inferiority complex. Various factors played a role in this. Critical, however, was the fact that the Turks not only were continuously humiliated and loathed, but they were conscious of this humiliation.

Seen through the prism of Turkish national identity, the Christian minorities were viewed as one of the primary factors responsible for the decline and disintegration of the Ottoman Empire. The Christians were, therefore, stigmatized as enemies. This enmity was rendered all the more intense by the fact that some imperial powers used the Christians as a lever in order to realize the partition of the empire consistent with their own power interests. The Christians hereby obtained certain economic and social privileges. Another factor which created an image of hostile Christians was the role Islam played in this connection. On the basis of Islamic culture and its system of laws, the Moslems have always considered the Christians as an inferior minority group and have never viewed them as being equal to themselves. Thus the Christians did not enjoy equality in the Ottoman Empire. But during the stages marking the disintegration of the Empire, the reforms and economic privileges led to a change in the position of the Christians. The Turks gradually lost their social status as a superior class. They could not reconcile themselves to the idea of equality with the Christians by way of reforms, or that a Christian minority should attain a better economic position than they. This loss of status led to the rise of hate-revenge sentiments against those who were seen as responsible. The Moslems did not "peacefully" accept their steadily weakening position. This awareness of loss of status played a significant role in the enactment of the massacre against Christians, and the history of the nineteenth century provides much evidence for this.

The decision to commit genocide can be understood only against this background, but I do not claim that the genocide is a direct result of this frame of mind. Needed were additional conditions which, however, could lead to genocide only in this context. One of these conditions was that the Turks were the heirs to a sublime and glorious past but were steadily growing weak and were suffering from the ills of the exaltation of their past. The demise was unavoidable in the event of a war. The decision for genocide arose within the purview of this assumption.

Accelerated disintegration and fragmentation of the national state give rise to feelings of fear of "annihilation"," siege by enemies," and "a war of naked survival fought with one's back to the wall" in the later stages of this process. When the situation is seen as increasingly hopeless, those in power who cannot prevent this decline become increasingly aggressive. When the national elite sees it as less and less probable that a great and ideal future can be created and that the goal appears in jeopardy and the process of decline is unstoppable ,the countermeasures meant to stop this process acquire a more and more barbaric character. The resort to genocide stands at the apex of this process.

With their backs to the wall, the defenders easily become the destroyers of civilization. They easily become barbarians. This was the history of the Turks before World War 1. Pan Turanism and the ideal of a great Turkish empire became stronger as the disintegration and partition of the empire progressed and the situation grew more hopeless. While the quest for a collective identity that would hold the empire together proved abortive, the leadership turned farther toward the East, to regions and peoples where the ideal of empire could be realized. The Turks perceived the First World War as an historical opportunity. Those who had suffered defeat and lived through a painful process, including degradation and loss of honor, for years, now saw the looming on the horizon of an historical opportunity to stop the decline from which there was otherwise no escape. The Turks' bad fortune, it was thought, could now be reversed and the disintegration stopped. The great Turkish empire could be recreated; not on all the same lands, but on another expanse inhabited by loyal Turkish people worthy of trust. It was as if the clouds had unexpectedly lifted to reveal the contours of a glorious sun. The rapid succession of military debacles the Turks suffered during the first months of World War I had a very sobering effect however. Especially the defeat at Sarikamish, near Kars, in the Anatolian east, in December 1914 and January 1915, burst the Turanian-lslamic dream like a soap bubble. The Ottoman-Turkish rulers could, however, assign blame and identify those responsible for this defeat. The Turks had not really lost; they had been betrayed. Elias' description in the German context is apt here: "[The defeat]had been caused by cunning deception, by criminals, by means of a conspiracy, by a 'stab in the back' administered by internal traitors in the rear of the combat troops." This quote from Elias, though describing the Nazi case, cannot only logically be extended to the rationale advanced for the case of the Armenian Genocide, but it can literally be seen as a general accusation levelled against the Armenians in some studies of the genocide.

[cuddles20035]

Hi everyone,

I must first start by saying that I completly understnad, try to at least, the reasons you give to call what happened in 1915 a so-called genocide. Yes a lot of people got killed. That was true for both ways though. Everybody needs to be objective.

You are making everyone believe that the Armenians didn't do anything and only the Turks are to blame. You can not call what happened in the nature of a war a genocide. Especially, if it is not solely aganst a certian race. So comparing it with Hitler is ridicilous. If race was an issue then how were there so many Armanians left in Turkey, whom currently live in peace.

all these actions that have been taken, is it really a matter of compensation or is it simply to take revenge. No body here is including how the Armenians teamed up with the other forces to fight against Turkey. How can you expect the Turkish army (recognize the poverty level the country was at, at that time) give flowers or ignore the people who have raped all those women, who killed all those children, who has cut all those pregnant women's stomach to take the children out and fed it back to the Turkish people. How dare you call it a genocide given the nature of the era.

Of course an action had to be taken. What else is expected? I know that I am going to get alot of unsensible responses to this message, I might get banned, or I they might not simply post this thread. It is worth trying however. Whoever is reading this must understand that what ever happened was not agains the Armenian race overall, it was against the people that acted in a way that was jepordizing the countries future.

I mourn for all those Turks and Armanians that left this world for nothing. I hope I will have some followers. Even one person that thinks the way that I do will make me satisfied. I know it is very naive to think about how we can all live together in peace, but that must be our purpose. Not hurting each other... Ambition and revenge won't bring anything back and won't take you any where. Let us all be the change we want to see in this world.

Best wishes,
CAN

Just so you know Hitler got his idea from the Turks "Who remembers the Armenians"