Religion and Atheism

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I'm not really b!tchy, I just don't appreciate false information.



When talking about the origins and history of the Bible, and how most Christians (i.e. the Apostolic Churches) relate to it, I do not consider my post "minutiae".



That's subjective, especially considering the debate is about people's deep-seated beliefs. I don't think I was being rude to him, only trying to bring him down to reality that most of the assumptions which he bases his conclusions upon are not correct.



Depends whose Christianity you're talking about. I agree that American atheists tend to be able to pick out random Bible verses and say, "see, look how evil Christianity is!" and then deconstruct American Christianity that way. But I think most American atheists know next-to-nothing about what Christianity has said over its near-2000 year history. Do you know how the Bible is traditionally interpreted (i.e. through the Church Fathers)? It is well known that anyone can take any verse of the Bible and make any sort of claim using it, but this is not how Christians have traditionally understood it including the Armenian Church.

I was just pointing out that most Christians do not agree with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura and that this is basically an American invention. Most Christians do not think like the ones you see on TV, and that's an empirical fact.

However a huge part of Christians aren't like you. To me you got three different kinds: one like you who doesn't take the bible as a literal word of god, most of them seem to live in Europe and you got a small part in the US. Secondly you got your crazy fundamentalist in the US, we all know them. They refuse to accept anything that isn't in the bible. They are no different than the taliban or any other extremist out there.

Third group is the group that lives in poorer countries and just doesn't know anything else because they don't have access to it and the lack of education. You got a lot of them in Armenia, we call them havadatjal.

What the dangerous thing is that those people take the bible as the word of god and everything in it true. How many times have you not seen Armenia being connected to Noah and the flood.
People like you are a minority, a gem in the bunch so to say. Most people don't have the knowledge you have.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

OBVIOUSLY he meant the collect "we" meaning humanity, but you'll take issue with that too and we know your views on that. To avoid having this debate in this thread, I will post a link to the thread where this was discussed for any who are curious:

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php/17295-NASA-refurbishes-video-copies-of-moon-landing?

Please post any comments pertaining to this, in that thread.

Typical American mentally "our basketball team won" "we did this" "we" it's like the American mentality is conditioned like the "Borg".

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

"WE" didn't go to the moon. At least I don't know anyone that has gone to the moon and brought back vacation photos .

OBVIOUSLY he meant the collect "we" meaning humanity, but you'll take issue with that too and we know your views on that. To avoid having this debate in this thread, I will post a link to the thread where this was discussed for any who are curious:

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php/17295-NASA-refurbishes-video-copies-of-moon-landing?

Please post any comments pertaining to this, in that thread.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Yeah, I've run into this... Some people identify jewish like it's an ethnicity and not a religion. So, it's like they're ethnic jew, but not religiously a jew.
It's confusing to say the least. I suppose they do share a culture even if they don't believe.

Why do we generally refer to people from France as French when they are actually Franks? They have Germanic roots so frankly speaking, they should be referred to as Frankish not French. It's basically an attempt by Hryas to bury the history in the region (disconnecting the French people from their own roots) to form an illusion that the current rulers of France are liberal, peaceful and fun loving people. In actuality, France is just as imperial and murderous as it was in its hay days.

Perhaps to some. To me, the behavior of the masses hasne't tended to be much proof of truth. We burned witches in the past. We shunned those that said the Earth was not at the center of the universe. It took us a long time to figure out the Earth is actually round ... there are still people that have trouble believing we actually went to the moon. So yah, with such a wide-spread mental disease (aka religion), I certainly won't be shocked to find out MANY MANY MANY have been hallucinating for a long long LOOOOONG time.

For the record, I am not "atheist". I am much more of a practicalist, agnostic, whaterver ... I am pretty certain at this point I have a good understanding how Christianity came to be 2000 years ago and I am pretty certain I will not be believing in that God but of course I have no clue about the real questions of existence, purpose, etc.

When you say "We burned witches in the past" were Armenians involved in any of these things? Why should everyone be made guilty for things that only certain individual people or groups of people were responsible for? Just because someone identifies themselves as being Christian doesn't make them a Nazi. I know my ancestors had no involvement in Nazi Germany.

As far as the "Earth is flat" argument, this was a 20th century myth. The Greeks knew the Earth was round and was able to estimate its diameter rather accurately.

"WE" didn't go to the moon. At least I don't know anyone that has gone to the moon and brought back vacation photos .

[Sip]

Re: Religion and Atheism

This quote just shows your arrogance and pride regarding a subject you know nothing about. You make claims about "most Christians" because they happen to support your philosophical prejudices.

I have never hidden the fact that I have never read the Bible and don't really intend to. I actually have probably read maybe 3 books total in the last 2 decades. My entire basis for discussion in these topics is what other people say and just personal observations. I totally grant you that my view of "most Christians" may be highly localized to the western US. I did live in Germany for a while and was exposed to the protestant/catholic divide there but I was far too young to make much of it.

Now regarding my "claims", most are at a fairly high level and on the fundamental basiseses of Christianity. As kind of a computery guy, I tend not to get bogged down when I don't really understand the big picture.

NOW, both of these Christianities reject the idea of what you are talking about (sola scriptura). Sola Scriptura is the idea that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, literally. This is a new Protestant idea (think Reformation) and has been rejected by the ancient Churches, going back to the third, fourth, and fifth centuries. If you had any knowledge on the topic you purpose to be talking about, you would already know all this and I wouldn't have to explain it.

As I said there are 2 schools of thought: Those who think the bible is the literal word of God and those who do not. How did I not convey this in my post (there were 2 choices I presented to Kanadahye). So what you are telling me is that the Catholics and the Orthodoxes are of the non-literal category. Fine and dandy.

The FUNDAMENTAL issue still remains: In order to believe in God you have to have faith that the Bible is true (at least the parts that talk about God). I see no reason presented in the validity of the Biblbe other than it is some sort of holy book that is not to be questioned. THIS is the main problem I (and of course pretty much anyone that can think on his or her own) have with this entire premise of circular reinforcement logic (I made that phrase up since I also want to use big words)

By the way, the best proof for the Resurrection is the existence of the Church. Multitudes of people are not going to willingly be martyred for something that isn't real, and they ALL couldn't have been hallucinating.

Perhaps to some. To me, the behavior of the masses hasne't tended to be much proof of truth. We burned witches in the past. We shunned those that said the Earth was not at the center of the universe. It took us a long time to figure out the Earth is actually round ... there are still people that have trouble believing we actually went to the moon. So yah, with such a wide-spread mental disease (aka religion), I certainly won't be shocked to find out MANY MANY MANY have been hallucinating for a long long LOOOOONG time.

For the record, I am not "atheist". I am much more of a practicalist, agnostic, whaterver ... I am pretty certain at this point I have a good understanding how Christianity came to be 2000 years ago and I am pretty certain I will not be believing in that God but of course I have no clue about the real questions of existence, purpose, etc.

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I'm not really b!tchy, I just don't appreciate false information.

I know that's ultimately your issue with it, but it's not as if he's been deliberately misrepresenting it. It's possible to correct his understanding of it with a softer tone, no? I think that we should all be able to have discussions in a way that's more respectful of one another, but that takes a concerted effort. That's all I'm saying and so I'm not doing line by line comments to the rest of your post. I'm not singling you out either. I think we've all done it.

[yerazhishda]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Ara, Davo jan! We're a little b!tchy aren't we?

I'm not really b!tchy, I just don't appreciate false information.

Not everyone is obsessed with the minutiae of religion.

When talking about the origins and history of the Bible, and how most Christians (i.e. the Apostolic Churches) relate to it, I do not consider my post "minutiae".

You're being awfully rude in your reply (I assume because you're taking it personally and there's no need for that either). Be a little nicer and reap it twofold in return.

That's subjective, especially considering the debate is about people's deep-seated beliefs. I don't think I was being rude to him, only trying to bring him down to reality that most of the assumptions which he bases his conclusions upon are not correct.

The average atheists tends to know religion (esp Christianity) and the content of the bible better than the average believer. YOU are not average... remember that.

Depends whose Christianity you're talking about. I agree that American atheists tend to be able to pick out random Bible verses and say, "see, look how evil Christianity is!" and then deconstruct American Christianity that way. But I think most American atheists know next-to-nothing about what Christianity has said over its near-2000 year history. Do you know how the Bible is traditionally interpreted (i.e. through the Church Fathers)? It is well known that anyone can take any verse of the Bible and make any sort of claim using it, but this is not how Christians have traditionally understood it including the Armenian Church.

I was just pointing out that most Christians do not agree with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura and that this is basically an American invention. Most Christians do not think like the ones you see on TV, and that's an empirical fact.

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Simple question. You can be Armenian and Atheist correct? You can't be Christian and Atheist. However you can be J3wish and Atheist. So my question to you is what is a J3w? Is it a person who is a shape shifter?

Yeah, I've run into this... Some people identify jewish like it's an ethnicity and not a religion. So, it's like they're ethnic jew, but not religiously a jew.
It's confusing to say the least. I suppose they do share a culture even if they don't believe.

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

From a different point of view, the above seems to apply to the atheists well...

I meant this generally (I think that's why Kanada was mocking the language) to apply to both groups.

Yea, thank you. I knew atheists are a more 'intellectual', 'intelligent', 'educated' bunch...
So you think the intelligent believers (or non-intelligent atheists) happen to be the exceptions?? If this is how all atheists think, a very self-absorbed attitude I must say...

I wasn't saying that! Argh... Apparently there's no way of saying that there does happen to be a correlation without people being offended. There's like a 6 point difference... that means there's HUGE overlap among the groups. Across large numbers there's a statistical difference, but with a smallish difference like that, it doesn't translate well to any individual.

My suggestion... let people figure out themselves whether they are offended or not. But to clarify further... his confusion comes from the fact that he is stuck in a contradiction here (have already explained). Regardless, I like Karo because as a young man he has mature world views.

Okay, this translates to "I don't care what you think... I was talking to Karo whom I like better than you"? :-/ I guess I've offended you too if your response to me letting you know that atheists will generally be offended by that kind of comment is basically "stfu, who asked you?" You're typically quite pleasant and nice.
So much for trying to be helpful and eliminate one of the things that leads to conflict...

*******
For the record, I do not consider atheists as less Armenian or not Armenian, christian or non-christian, all is proven by how you behave/your actions... the problem with some of these atheists is the arrogance and the self-righteous attitude.

I appreciate this because it is a rare stance. If I've come across as having any kind of chip on my shoulder, it's because I feel like I have to constantly defend myself. Whenever it comes up that I don't believe, people do what's been done here and start quoting the bible, remind me I'm going to hell, and otherwise try to persuade me (or maybe justify their belief?). It's like if you asked someone about their religion and they said "I'm Buddhist" it seems like people leave that alone, but if you say you don't subscribe to any religion, then people have something to say about that. I speak up also because I think atheists are misunderstood (e.g. we're not immoral, socialists, satanists, etc.) and I hope to correct some of that. What I am not trying to do is persuade anyone to give up their own religious beliefs. Nor am I trying to offend anyone (although, apparently I'm not doing a great job of this one).

[Lucin]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I think this kind of discussion takes place when one person starts to tell another that they don't understand. I think this is when people feel compelled to defend that they have not arrived at their viewpoint because they are intellectually lacking and that they're plenty smart enough to weigh things for themselves etc.

From a different point of view, the above seems to apply to the atheists well...

I know there are exceptions though (and I have met lots of people), but there is in fact a statistical correlation (smallish, but significant) between IQ and belief. Just sayin'!

Yea, thank you. I knew atheists are a more 'intellectual', 'intelligent', 'educated' bunch...
So you think the intelligent believers (or non-intelligent atheists) happen to be the exceptions?? If this is how all atheists think, a very self-absorbed attitude I must say...

And just a suggestion... I wouldn't tell people they're confused. How would you feel if I patted you on the shoulder, and said "It's okay, you're a little confused right now... you'll come to your senses eventually"? That's offensive... Ironically enough, that's basically the equivalent of what you're complaining about except instead of saying "you're not intelligent enough to understand" you're saying "you're too confused."

My suggestion... let people figure out themselves whether they are offended or not. But to clarify further... his confusion comes from the fact that he is stuck in a contradiction here (have already explained). Regardless, I like Karo because as a young man he has mature world views.



*******
For the record, I do not consider atheists as less Armenian or not Armenian, christian or non-christian, all is proven by how you behave/your actions... the problem with some of these atheists is the arrogance and the self-righteous attitude.