Armenian lesbians/gays

[Sip]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

well families usually have children, and women need to raise the children, be there for the children, hold up the house, it's a very important job.

This is very insulting to a man. Are you saying men aren't as good and can't do a good job at raising children? Why is it that the women need to raise the children? Who said so?

I don't know where you get this feminist crap about women being better at certain things but I definitely think men are just as good, if not BETTER than women in almost everything. Including raising children and holding up a house.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

No. According to liberal ideals, you get to do whatever you want, have your wife dress or behave in whatever what you choose. And everyone else gets that same right to live in whatever way that suits them. And stop using the Russian model as if it's the only one.

Respect is a two way street, by the way. Why should a child respect a parent who is unkind, unavailable, or disrespectful?

Did I say parent should be unkind or disrespectful? In a loving household, there's respect one way, and great care and love the other way. As for coming to liberal ideals, there are certain customs in society that need to be respected and cherished. No one can really force a person or people to act a certain way, but you can create a strong society where the customs are genuinely respected by the people and followed.

Mos, so do you then believe that women should make the decisions regarding the children? If they're the ones taking care of them, this is fair, no? It's similar logic to what you're saying about finances.

You've also repeated that you don't want to impose anything on others, but then you describe doing exactly that. The second you start saying how others should live, then you are...

What kind of decisions? What they are going to eat? Yes. What they are going to wear? Sure....but if it comes to a major decision point in child's life than the man has to have the final word.

I'm not imposing anything. All I'm doing is emphasising the importance of certain values to our society.

This is very insulting to a man. Are you saying men aren't as good and can't do a good job at raising children? Why is it that the women need to raise the children? Who said so?

I don't know where you get this feminist crap about women being better at certain things but I definitely think men are just as good, if not BETTER than women in almost everything. Including raising children and holding up a house.

Biologically it's the woman that rears the child from the early years while the man supports the family financially and protection. This biological task doesn't disappear easily. A mother's love and care is different from father's care and love. Given this natural difference, the roles are acceptable.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

What kind of decisions? What they are going to eat? Yes. What they are going to wear? Sure....but if it comes to a major decision point in child's life than the man has to have the final word.

I'm not imposing anything. All I'm doing is emphasising the importance of certain values to our society.

Seriously? I find it very revealing that instead of saying major decisions should be made jointly, you said the man has the final word.

If the woman is interacting more with the children and spending time with them while the father is absent from the home and at work and is not involved in "raising" the children, why should he have the final word when it comes to "major" decisions. Shouldn't it be completely the contrary? That for the major decisions it would become even more important that the parent that really knows and understands the needs, desires, apprehensions, abilities, etc. of the children to make the decision?

You're inconsistent as far as your reasoning goes, you're only willing to apply the same rules if it leads to men coming out superior or dominant in some way. That's by definition irrational. It reveals that your views on this are not based on any tangible or logical reasons, but your own biases. If this was not the case, you'd apply the same reasoning uniformly.

My own view, btw is that BOTH parents need to be involved in the parenting. Earning money isn't enough, both parents need to spend time interacting with their children. And both should be involved in decisions pertaining to their children and such decisions should be made jointly.

You also underestimate the power of societal pressure. Emphasizing certain values in a society over others and attaching strong negative stigma to nonconformity is imposing.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

In family systems where women are placed into second class status, generally they feel compelled to be manipulative and indirect. Under such situations it may seem as if the man is in control, but it is actually the woman who is pulling the strings behind the scenes. What is most important, however, is that the man appears to be in the dominant position, but really he isn't. In a system where power is shared equally, there is no need for manipulation.

But let us consider another situation. What if an Armenian family moves to the US when a daughter is very young. This daughter happens to be very gifted, a solid professional who knows the ways of her adopted land. She is certainly more educated than her father, and able to assert herself in the world outside the home. Should the father continue to make decisions for this family when, clearly, there is someone else, a younger woman, who can probably do it better, more safely, and in a way that benefits the entire family. Should this daughter remain silent and subservient? What if her father insists on making major financial and other decisions, despite the fact that he is not qualified to do so? What should be done in this situation?

Was it a mistake for the daughter to have acquired her education and place in the world because it diminishes her father's power and influence? Should she marry an Armenian man who is not her intellectual equal because that is what her father has planned for her, because the family's "pativ" is more important than this young woman's chance for happiness and fulfillment in life?

This is something that happens every day in Armenian families. You have capable, educated, articulate daughters who are prevented from asserting their wishes and applying their gifts toward the betterment of the entire family and further, the entire nation. This, to me, is the greatest transgression against the nation and will be a reason why the Armenian nation is considered a backwater hinterland, an afterthought to the rest of the civilized world. Sometimes traditional values are just anachronistic and dysfunctional, and there is no way to make them work.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Seriously? I find it very revealing that instead of saying major decisions should be made jointly, you said the man has the final word.

If the woman is interacting more with the children and spending time with them while the father is absent from the home and at work and is not involved in "raising" the children, why should he have the final word when it comes to "major" decisions. Shouldn't it be completely the contrary? That for the major decisions it would become even more important that the parent that really knows and understands the needs, desires, apprehensions, abilities, etc. of the children to make the decision?

You're inconsistent as far as your reasoning goes, you're only willing to apply the same rules if it leads to men coming out superior or dominant in some way. That's by definition irrational. It reveals that your views on this are not based on any tangible or logical reasons, but your own biases. If this was not the case, you'd apply the same reasoning uniformly.

My own view, btw is that BOTH parents need to be involved in the parenting. Earning money isn't enough, both parents need to spend time interacting with their children. And both should be involved in decisions pertaining to their children and such decisions should be made jointly.

You also underestimate the power of societal pressure. Emphasizing certain values in a society over others and attaching strong negative stigma to nonconformity is imposing.

Not really. Biology is not always black and white. The inherent roles that man and woman have had in family/society is based on inherent strengths and weaknesses. When it comes to the long term decisions, yes a man's input in my view is more important because long term decisions involve risk, finances, and in general to be done by the provider of the household. For example, deciding what career path the child should take.

Again, both parents are involved in the parenting. The mother pays a very key role in the child's development from feeding to teach child good morals to teaching child about culture and history of their nation. The father has his own input also, it's just the nature of his decisions will at times be different because of his role in the family.

In family systems where women are placed into second class status, generally they feel compelled to be manipulative and indirect. Under such situations it may seem as if the man is in control, but it is actually the woman who is pulling the strings behind the scenes. What is most important, however, is that the man appears to be in the dominant position, but really he isn't. In a system where power is shared equally, there is no need for manipulation.

But let us consider another situation. What if an Armenian family moves to the US when a daughter is very young. This daughter happens to be very gifted, a solid professional who knows the ways of her adopted land. She is certainly more educated than her father, and able to assert herself in the world outside the home. Should the father continue to make decisions for this family when, clearly, there is someone else, a younger woman, who can probably do it better, more safely, and in a way that benefits the entire family. Should this daughter remain silent and subservient? What if her father insists on making major financial and other decisions, despite the fact that he is not qualified to do so? What should be done in this situation?

Was it a mistake for the daughter to have acquired her education and place in the world because it diminishes her father's power and influence? Should she marry an Armenian man who is not her intellectual equal because that is what her father has planned for her, because the family's "pativ" is more important than this young woman's chance for happiness and fulfillment in life?

This is something that happens every day in Armenian families. You have capable, educated, articulate daughters who are prevented from asserting their wishes and applying their gifts toward the betterment of the entire family and further, the entire nation. This, to me, is the greatest transgression against the nation and will be a reason why the Armenian nation is considered a backwater hinterland, an afterthought to the rest of the civilized world. Sometimes traditional values are just anachronistic and dysfunctional, and there is no way to make them work.

So are you saying for the daughter to become the head of the household in such scenario? Especially when it comes to Armenian women living in foreign lands, there has to be more control, in making sure she doesn't assimilate the family line and doesn't become a corrupted, sex-driven, Western xxxxx. Letting women corrupt themselves in foreign lands will just sink the reputation of the Armenian nation lower and lower. I'm sure if the family raises her in the right way though she will be able to counter these negative influences and remain respectable, modest, and intelligent and dedicate herself to her family.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

The insistence on women's chastity has its roots in men maneuvering to control women's sexuality and sexual freedom. An Armenian woman's sexuality is under her father's control until she is married, thereupon it becomes her husband's property. This is why, also, women are required to refrain from masturbation, use of internal menstrual management, and above all, from sexual penetration before marriage. What this sets up is another manipulation. Many women will resort to having anal sex prior to marriage in an attempt to preserve the hymen. Other women will have vaginal intercourse but will go to one of many surgeons who will recreate a hymen and pocket some money in the process.

Women's sexuality has been a thorn in the sides of patriarchal societies since the beginning of time. From pre-Christian times to nearly the present, the "treatment" for a disease called "hysteria" was this: A woman diagnosed with hysterical neuroses would go to the doctor who would then manually bring her to orgasm. This would be repeated at regular intervals in order to keep the condition under control. Why, you may ask, did the disease arise to begin with? Well, that's because men were often sexually inept (having had the bulk of their own sexual experiences with prostitutes, younger female relatives and perhaps other young men) and didn't know that 1) women needed to orgasm, and 2) that vaginal intercourse on its own was probably not going to do the job. So, you had all these sexually frustrated women who were labeled as "hysterical", but no one knew or bothered to ask them whether they were satisfied with their sex lives. Also, these women were prohibited from pleasuring themselves. Eventually, the vibrator was invented so that doctors could provide the treatment more easily, to more patients, for more money. This was an ingenious solution to a problem that, in some other societies, required and continues to require that women's genitals be mutilated, their xxxxorises excised and their labia sewn shut so that they do not seek sexual pleasure, or demand it within the context of marriage, so that a man who has no effing idea how to satisfy a woman doesn't feel emasculated.

Holy commodification of female sexuality, Batman! If only people who don't know what they're talking about just refrained from talking.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

The insistence on women's chastity has its roots in men maneuvering to control women's sexuality and sexual freedom. An Armenian woman's sexuality is under her father's control until she is married, thereupon it becomes her husband's property. This is why, also, women are required to refrain from masturbation, use of internal menstrual management, and above all, from sexual penetration before marriage. What this sets up is another manipulation. Many women will resort to having anal sex prior to marriage in an attempt to preserve the hymen. Other women will have vaginal intercourse but will go to one of many surgeons who will recreate a hymen and pocket some money in the process.

Women's sexuality has been a thorn in the sides of patriarchal societies since the beginning of time. From pre-Christian times to nearly the present, the "treatment" for a disease called "hysteria" was this: A woman diagnosed with hysterical neuroses would go to the doctor who would then manually bring her to orgasm. This would be repeated at regular intervals in order to keep the condition under control. Why, you may ask, did the disease arise to begin with? Well, that's because men were often sexually inept (having had the bulk of their own sexual experiences with prostitutes, younger female relatives and perhaps other young men) and didn't know that 1) women needed to orgasm, and 2) that vaginal intercourse on its own was probably not going to do the job. So, you had all these sexually frustrated women who were labeled as "hysterical", but no one knew or bothered to ask them whether they were satisfied with their sex lives. Also, these women were prohibited from pleasuring themselves. Eventually, the vibrator was invented so that doctors could provide the treatment more easily, to more patients, for more money. This was an ingenious solution to a problem that, in some other societies, required and continues to require that women's genitals be mutilated, their xxxxorises excised and their labia sewn shut so that they do not seek sexual pleasure, or demand it within the context of marriage, so that a man who has no effing idea how to satisfy a woman doesn't feel emasculated.

Holy commodification of female sexuality, Batman! If only people who don't know what they're talking about just refrained from talking.

It's absolutely right to expect a woman to be virgin till marriage. I guess you'd prefer the model where woman go sleeping with every other guy, and by the time it comes to have a family they have had so many different sexual partners they can't even remember, and more likely than not such a marriage ends in a dysfunctional manner. I'm sure you've studied this pseudo-psychology of sexual themes rather well, but it doesn't fly with me. The preservation of a woman's purity till marriage is essential, because when that is destroyed in society, so does the cohesive family unit, and from then all sorts of things follow. Such "urges" among them that may or may not take place have to be ignored and overcome. Our body has many urges and emotions, it doesn't mean we should respond to each and every emotion. That would be chaos.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

So, if the woman you marry is a virgin, and you are not, then whose sisters and daughters have you been having sex with? I presume the same demand for "purity" isn't required of men. Also, a woman can choose to remain a virgin all her life if she wishes, but she should also be free to have a full sexual experience whenever she feels she is ready for it. That is certainly how I intend for my daughter to grow up. And believe me, she will be much more knowledgeable of the workings of her klitoris than of her hymen. And when she comes to me and tells me she is ready to have sex, I will certainly guide her and make sure it is what she wants and prepare her so that she has the best and safest experience she can possibly have, be it with a man or a woman. Same goes for my son.

It is amazing that you would focus the integrity of all mankind and society on that square centimeter of membrane between a woman's legs. Very strange. Also, let me ask you this: If people aren't allowed to have sex out of wedlock, are they at least allowed to pleasure themselves? Is masturbation also perverse? Do you masturbate?

By the way, I, myself had many many sexual experiences with men of all cultures and races before I got married at the ripe age of 37. I'm now probably old enough to be your mother. Anyhow, I married for the right reasons, because I love my husband and honor him and have absolutely no need or desire for anyone else. I've had my fill and now I can concentrate on being the best wife and mother I can possibly be, I can bring my full self into my marriage and my family. I have no curiosities or "what ifs", no regrets or "if onlys". And believe me, I am certain I am a much more interesting sexual partner for my husband than any 18 year old virgin he might have married when he was 25. He has even met some of my previous partners and they've gotten on quite well.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

So, if the woman you marry is a virgin, and you are not, then whose sisters and daughters have you been having sex with? I presume the same demand for "purity" isn't required of men. Also, a woman can choose to remain a virgin all her life if she wishes, but she should also be free to have a full sexual experience whenever she feels she is ready for it. That is certainly how I intend for my daughter to grow up. And believe me, she will be much more knowledgeable of the workings of her klitoris than of her hymen. And when she comes to me and tells me she is ready to have sex, I will certainly guide her and make sure it is what she wants and prepare her so that she has the best and safest experience she can possibly have, be it with a man or a woman. Same goes for my son.

It is amazing that you would focus the integrity of all mankind and society on that square centimeter of membrane between a woman's legs. Very strange. Also, let me ask you this: If people aren't allowed to have sex out of wedlock, are they at least allowed to pleasure themselves? Is masturbation also perverse? Do you masturbate?

By the way, I, myself had many many sexual experiences with men of all cultures and races before I got married at the ripe age of 37. I'm now probably old enough to be your mother. Anyhow, I married for the right reasons, because I love my husband and honor him and have absolutely no need or desire for anyone else. I've had my fill and now I can concentrate on being the best wife and mother I can possibly be, I can bring my full self into my marriage and my family. I have no curiosities or "what ifs", no regrets or "if onlys". And believe me, I am certain I am a much more interesting sexual partner for my husband than any 18 year old virgin he might have married when he was 25. He has even met some of my previous partners and they've gotten on quite well.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

The requirement for being virgin doesn't affect men. It's not the man that bears the children and spends time like mother does with the children. The level of purity for the woman has to be higher. There are always the wh*res of society, usually a small minority, often they are the ones who can be used for man's sexual experience. Though if you live in Russia, there are not a small minority haha....sex out of wedlock? well it's desired that neither do such, but realistically men often do it. Similar to the virgin requirement for woman, it's a much bigger moral travesty for woman to have sex out of wedlock than man. That just a result of our biological, inherent roles in the family. As for your personal life, I don't want to get into a debate or criticism regarding personal lives. And I know you are trying to put thinly veiled insults here and there, just don't do it, it's not worth it.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

So, you dehumanize other people for the sake of justifying your own ideology? Nice!

You must be very young, and very limited in your education and critical thinking skills. You'd fit right in with the Taliban! You can even go throw stones at women who are accused of sleeping around. Really, you come across more as a caricature than a real person.

My insults aren't thinly veiled at all. They're right there, out in the open. You don't really inspire or compel me to veil anything, as veiling would be a sign of deference and respect. I give deference and respect freely to those who merit it, not to people who feel entitled to it because of what's dangling between their legs.