Armenian lesbians/gays

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

And, personally, I would rather we had a lower birth rate resulting in fewer but higher quality offspring.

Mos, I think what you are proposing is already being done in the United States by some ultra-conservative Christian fundamentalists. Google the Quiverfull movement and see what I mean.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Mos, how did you come to know about what Armenian society and its conservative cultural character looks like? What are your sources for this information? Why do we want our nation to persevere? What nation are you speaking of? My sense is that some folks want to model the future on some kind of idealized past. But once you look into the past, really look into it, there was nothing much to idealize about it. We were just as backward as our neighbors. Being Christian does not differentiate us all that much. You are assuming that all Armenian identities tend toward conservative values, and really, nothing could be further from the truth. What happens then is that some people feel like they have the right to tell everyone else what is right for them. And then you get a bunch of oligarchs running the show, etc. etc... I sometimes wonder if the Meg Azg types in Armenia aren't actually funded and/or supported by the oligarchs, much like the Tea Party folks in the US are supported by the Koch brothers.

Honestly, when I read things like "family unit, respect to parents, growing up with respectable values", I think these are all a defense against man's true nature, all those things that drive ingenuity, creativity, passion. Armenians have always been diverse, decentralized, independent thinkers. And that decentralized character, a tendency toward globalism, is what has preserved a culture throughout the ages. Now all of a sudden there are people who are trying to push this idea that we should be unified under some kind of de-globalized, backward-looking ideology that hates everything that doesn't feed into it and support it. I am not optimistic about the future of the Armenian nation.

And yes, I am Armenian on both sides of my family. My husband is as well. Not sure why it matters to you, though.

Oh so I know nothing about Armenian culture and values or Armenian society now....I suggest you take a look at how the European societies that once were more conservative, ethno-centric, changed into a multilcultural setting that has failed their countries. That is why right wing politics in Europe is becoming so popular, because people are sick of the multiculturalism and want their society back. It's always me telling you how to live, not the other way around. It couldn't be further from truth.

Family values and family orientation has always been fundamental to Armenian society. So it's not something to be changed but something to be kept and protected. Family relations are very important and continuation of that family with your own family very important for the nation.

And, personally, I would rather we had a lower birth rate resulting in fewer but higher quality offspring.

Mos, I think what you are proposing is already being done in the United States by some ultra-conservative Christian fundamentalists. Google the Quiverfull movement and see what I mean.

How can you even say that? Armenia has a very low birth rate, and that's very bad because Azerbaijan/Turkey have high birth rates. We need to encourage birth by providing incentive programs, by banning selective abortion, really encouraging people to marry and make families. Or we can be like the Russian couples that just get a dog and never have kids lol.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Wowza! Did you just say "banning selective abortion"? What's next on the agenda? Banning contraception? Polygamy?

Also, no one is telling you how to live. You can feel free to marry, make sure your wife dresses conservatively, have 10 children, see to it that your wife stays home to tend to the children and wash your socks. You can also make sure your daughters grow up to marry whomever you decide they should marry. You can make sure your sons bring their wives to live under the same roof as you, bringing with them whatever resources and prestige that they carry. You can see to it that your daughters don't really pursue an education or a career, since that doesn't really serve your patriarchal agenda. You can see to it that your daughters in law never look you in the eye or speak to you directly. You can do all of that and more, and not demand that anyone else live like that. See? No one is imposing anything on you. If you want to be the riff-raff trailer trash of the Armenian nation, you can go ahead and do that. You're free. Others are free to choose something different.

Also, taking European society as an example is completely irrelevant. In many ways, European society has become so much more productive and culturally richer with the liberalization of their policies. If right wingers are gaining power in Europe, you can bet it is to make sure that "dark" people, Kurds, Arabs, Turks, Assyrians, and yes, Armenians (we're not considered European, never were, never will be), don't get the same rights and benefits the natives do.

Personally, I believe the measure of a successful society is the conditions under which girls and women are living, and the opportunities they have for higher education, sexual freedom, and full control of their reproductive choices. I don't want to be Armenian or raise my daughter to be Armenian under any other conditions. Your brand of being Armenian isn't necessarily "the" brand, or the "only" brand. Feel free to live according to your ideals and let others live according to theirs.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Mos, this is your man, isn't he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDoS30D16BQ

I think he is a disgusting pig who is trying to model some weird neo-Nazi ideology. It makes me nauseous.

[Sip]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Also, no one is telling you how to live. You can feel free to marry, make sure your wife dresses conservatively, have 10 children, see to it that your wife stays home to tend to the children and wash your socks. You can also make sure your daughters grow up to marry whomever you decide they should marry. You can make sure your sons bring their wives to live under the same roof as you, bringing with them whatever resources and prestige that they carry. You can see to it that your daughters don't really pursue an education or a career, since that doesn't really serve your patriarchal agenda. You can see to it that your daughters in law never look you in the eye or speak to you directly. You can do all of that and more, and not demand that anyone else live like that. See? No one is imposing anything on you. If you want to be the riff-raff trailer trash of the Armenian nation, you can go ahead and do that. You're free. Others are free to choose something different.

I think the real problem is he realizes no worthwhile woman and child would choose that way of life. Since we are advocating freedom from this kind of conservative tyranny, that pretty much ends any hopes he has of having such a life. The only way that he can get what he wants is by forcing it on others (namely his wife and daughters).

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Back in the old days, women were property. Sending them off to earn money as wh0res isn't that different. Wasn't a daughter supposed to bring a dowry? Wasn't she given away? Sent to live with the husband's family? All of these are consistent with the equating of women as property.

Exactly, no woman would choose that. That's why societies that have those types of ideals also believe that woman should obey, are intellectually inferior, unpredictable, prone to whim, etc. All excuses to dismiss their wishes completely and impose men's will upon them. In fact, I believe Mos has proposed something similar arguing that because Armenian women are making poor choices in men, that is, not marrying Armenian men, their families should prevent this by choosing for them. I can search for the thread, but that was the gist of it. It can be argued it's cyclical.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

My sense is that Mos is a very young person, maybe late teens, early 20s. Hopefully, as he gains more life experience, he will be less insistent that his way (or of those who think like him) are not the only way. The school of hard knocks is an excellent teacher.

[retro]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Also, taking European society as an example is completely irrelevant. In many ways, European society has become so much more productive and culturally richer with the liberalization of their policies. If right wingers are gaining power in Europe, you can bet it is to make sure that "dark" people, Kurds, Arabs, Turks, Assyrians, and yes, Armenians (we're not considered European, never were, never will be), don't get the same rights and benefits the natives do.

Why should foreigners have the same rights and benefits as natives Europeans do and how is your position even reasonable? Sorry but you Muslims aren't qualified to lecture anyone else on pluralism.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Wowza! Did you just say "banning selective abortion"? What's next on the agenda? Banning contraception? Polygamy?

Also, no one is telling you how to live. You can feel free to marry, make sure your wife dresses conservatively, have 10 children, see to it that your wife stays home to tend to the children and wash your socks. You can also make sure your daughters grow up to marry whomever you decide they should marry. You can make sure your sons bring their wives to live under the same roof as you, bringing with them whatever resources and prestige that they carry. You can see to it that your daughters don't really pursue an education or a career, since that doesn't really serve your patriarchal agenda. You can see to it that your daughters in law never look you in the eye or speak to you directly. You can do all of that and more, and not demand that anyone else live like that. See? No one is imposing anything on you. If you want to be the riff-raff trailer trash of the Armenian nation, you can go ahead and do that. You're free. Others are free to choose something different.

Also, taking European society as an example is completely irrelevant. In many ways, European society has become so much more productive and culturally richer with the liberalization of their policies. If right wingers are gaining power in Europe, you can bet it is to make sure that "dark" people, Kurds, Arabs, Turks, Assyrians, and yes, Armenians (we're not considered European, never were, never will be), don't get the same rights and benefits the natives do.

Personally, I believe the measure of a successful society is the conditions under which girls and women are living, and the opportunities they have for higher education, sexual freedom, and full control of their reproductive choices. I don't want to be Armenian or raise my daughter to be Armenian under any other conditions. Your brand of being Armenian isn't necessarily "the" brand, or the "only" brand. Feel free to live according to your ideals and let others live according to theirs.

Do you now how big of a problem selective abortion is in Armenia? Banning it is the right thing to do - it will help also with the struggling birth rate.

Oh so, some how living with family values and our traditions is being "trailer trash"? The views of your kind of people are very skewed. They think that a traditional household somehow means your are backwards, actually, having traditional values and running a traditional household is not backwards nor does it oppress anybody. It's you who try to make it as such traditional value oppress people. The root at such feminism is the demonisation of the man and the traditional family structure that has for so long been at the foundation of societies.

I wouldn't say Europe has become very rich with the cosmopolitan, anti-traditional values that have taken about last few decades. As for immigrants, yes many such immigrants, especially Muslims, will feel the strain in Europe as a result. Armenians of France for example are well integrated and are a rather respected immigrant group.

That's a really stupid measure of success of society. Having women dress like street prostitutes, or advocating this liberal "sexual freedom" which has caused so many single/dysfunctional families in the West, doesn't make a society successful, it spoils it. And of course you won't want to raise your children 'Armenian' because you favour this globalised/cosmopolitan view that being patriotic, that respecting your nation's roots and traditions is somehow "backwards" and irrelevant. Such a mindset will assimilate Armenians, weaken Armenian nation, and make us a footnote in a history book. The reason Armenian nation has been able to survive is because we Armenians have always cherished our heritage, nation, raised our kids in this traditions and values and to be appreciative and patriotic of their people and culture.

Mos, this is your man, isn't he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDoS30D16BQ

I think he is a disgusting pig who is trying to model some weird neo-Nazi ideology. It makes me nauseous.

Why you trying to label me?

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Muslims? Who would you be referring to? If you are directing that comment to me, you should know right up front that I am an atheist. I believe in no fairy dudes with long beards floating in the clouds deciding who' naughty or nice. I also think Jesus was a concoction of Paul of Tarsus who saw an excellent business opportunity. What a genius mastermind he was, huh?

Nation states don't make sense any more. Neither do religions. It won't be long before this planet is completely depleted and we will all have to find a way. We have to evolve away from nations and nationality and toward a meme of humanity and humanism. Otherwise we're all effed.