The Ottomans

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

OTTOMAN ETIQUETTE (by Ara Baliozian)
*****************************
If you don't like the message,
kill the messenger;
if you can't kill him, insult him;
if he ignores your insults,
drag him down into the gutter
where you may have the upper hand;
if he refuses to join you there
sling mud at him and keep slinging
in the hope some of it may stick.
Above all do not give up.
Keep trying.
Set your goal at his total destruction
even if it means destroying yourself in the process.
*

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

Good analysis from Ara Baliozian on claims of peaceful co-existence in Anatolia
#5 MEMO
TO MY TURKISH FRIENDS
************************************************** **
You dare to speak of six centuries of peaceful Armeno-Turkish coexistence in the Ottoman Empire. You forget that during this so-called brotherly co-existence you raped our daughters and forced them into concubinage; and you abducted our sons and forced them to kill and die in your imperialist wars of conquest. You did these things legally of course because your legal system was rotten.
*
Times change and laws change but you continue to think with the old Ottomanized brain, hence the absurd notion that, like the Sultan before them, both Talaat and Kemal represented the Almighty on earth and as such they could do no wrong, and anyone who says otherwise is guilty of treason and deserves to die.
*
A man can get used to anything. You got used to your own vileness and we got used to our own cowardly subservience. In that sense, the Ottoman Empire was not the blessing you like to believe it was, but a curse to both of us.
And if we massacred you whenever we had the upper hand it may be because as your subjects, we adopted and put into practice the values and methods of our masters. Before you blame us, blame yourself.
*
In one of his Anatolian travelogues Lord Kinross, a notorious Turcophile and the future author of a mammoth biography of Kemal, quotes an old Turkish peasant as having said: “We taught the Armenians a lesson the will never forget.” This illiterate peasant understood what educated, modernized, denialist scholars pretend not to understand today, namely that, what you did to us can neither be forgotten nor forgiven or, for that matter, covered up.

[retro]

Re: The Ottomans

the ottomans became more intolerant in the 19th century to stop the empire breaking up

the ottomans needed the Christians in the empire to provide many services, so they could not afford to oppress them too much

Not if the persecution of Maronites by the Ottomans Druze lackeys is anything to go by. However the people who seemingly faired the worst under Ottoman rule where the Persians and Balkan peoples. The Turkish Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians where to small a minority numerically to be a real threat to Turkey's integrity and they where highly intgrated into Turkish society.

Northern Fertile Crescent peoples are ethnicly mixed Northwestern Semitic/Indo-European Anatolian peoples. Which is why the Assyrians and Armenians are related to each other.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

Atatürk's secular nationalism and neo-Ottomanist Islamist despotism are two sides of the same Turkish coin..

the ottomans became more intolerant in the 19th century to stop the empire breaking up

the ottomans needed the Christians in the empire to provide many services, so they could not afford to oppress them too much

[retro]

Re: The Ottomans

what is interesting is that after experimenting with Kemalism (nationalism) for nearly 90 years, Turks are moving toward the Ottoman model.

the ottoman model gave more recognition to all the different nationalities

Turks have realized that for Turkey to remain a single state, and not break up into a Kurdish and a Turkish unit, Turkish nationalism will have to be toned down

Atatürk's secular nationalism and neo-Ottomanist Islamist despotism are two sides of the same Turkish coin.

Funny people the Kurds, as they seemingly have West Asian (presumably Persian/Mesopotamian) paternal and European (Balkan) maternal ancestry.

[retro]

Re: The Ottomans

I wonder if Armenian (besides Greek) artists were involved in creating these frescoes?

I suppose you never know as Rome conquered the Armenian empire and ruled over it for a few hundred years.

It seems George lost his head.

George is thought to have been a soldier that rose through the ranks of the Roman army, but resigned his post in protest when the emperor of the day, Diocletian, began persecuting Christians at the beginning of the fourth century.

He was imprisoned and tortured, but refused to deny his faith, and was eventually beheaded in Palestine - reputedly on 23 April 303.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

what is interesting is that after experimenting with Kemalism (nationalism) for nearly 90 years, Turks are moving toward the Ottoman model.

the ottoman model gave more recognition to all the different nationalities

Turks have realized that for Turkey to remain a single state, and not break up into a Kurdish and a Turkish unit, Turkish nationalism will have to be toned down

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

Oh, Armenians can fight very well! If I were to give examples of Armenian bravery and the ability to organize and fight, I would have to write a thick book.

Don't forget the most fearful of all Ottoman armies were the Janissaries, most of them stolen kids of the Armenians.

William Saroyan..

“I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose wars have all been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, literature is unread, music is unheard, and prayers are no more answered. Go ahead, destroy Armenia. See if you can do it. Send them into the desert without bread or water. Burn their homes and churches. Then see if they will not laugh, sing and pray again. For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a New Armenia.”

Saroyan seems to think that Armenians had lost all of their wars. We can say that until Armenian forces repelled attacks by Azerbaijan, they had scored very few victories in 600 years

It is true Armenians were successful when fighting for foreign armies

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

St George may be the patron saint of England, but he was born some 2,000 miles away in what is now Turkey.

Now the small Turkish town of Urgup wants to celebrate its links with St George by finding a twin town in England.

Urgup is situated at the foot of Mount Erciyes in Central Anatolia, said to be the scene of the mythical showdown between St George and the dragon.

And frescoes depicting St George and his foe can be found just outside the town in the Goreme caves.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8634593.stm

I wonder if Armenian (besides Greek) artists were involved in creating these frescoes?

Mount Erciyes is called Mount Arkeos in Armenian.

Armenian traders, artists and farmers very numerous around Gessaria (Kayseri, in Turkish) until 1915 which is near this mountain

This region came under Ottoman control around the 15/16th century

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

You make some valid points about the hollowness of the international community's claims to uphold the law. The genocide in Rwanda is another example. Pan Turkism was on the rise in Azerbaijan in the wake of the anti-Armenian pogroms there. In Turkey this is less clear. Many Turks have become used to a comfortable life and I'm not sure imperialism is on their minds any more. Turkey is improving relations with Bulgaria, Greece and Syria

Turkish businessmen are criss-crossing the skies all over the world bidding for contracts and that's what today's Turkey seems to be focussed on (mostly). Now we read that Kayseri (Caesaria, probably 30-35% Armenian before 1915) is the new center of Turkey's furniture export industry.

But this thread is in the history folder.

The Ottomans as we know were desert herdsmen from Central Asia mostly illiterate, who had converted into Islam a short time before they started their westward march.

The Armenians had been active in literature, architecture, philosophy, trade (but less successful in nation building). Then, they stagnated and finally entered the dark ages while the Ottomans went from strength to strength politically.

500 years ago the Ottoman dream was to take Europe and build an empire from England to India.

What was the Armenian dream then? Did the Armenians have a dream? This could explain the difference in fortunes between the Otomans and Armenians