Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

[Sako]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

Bravo! Now you're talking sireli Hayrenagits jan! Don't ever give up!

*The patriot holds the Armenian flag to his heart and shouts out UNITE*

Saco jan, tell me, I think you are speaking as such and frustrated by our people in the motherland because they are not united you say. Saco jan are you speaking in terms of them acting like sheep and everyone is thinking of their own skin only as you already said it and not thinking of their future or Armenia's future? In other words, there are not many like you in AG who thinks patriotically or wil fight for it disregarding their lives and revolutionize against the government despite losing their life? I think that's what you're saying.

OVERALL, yes, that's what I'm saying but believe it or not, I'm not asking everyone to put their lives on the line. Not everyone can or should do that. Not everyone becomes (or is) a hero. But that doesn't change A THING. We all play our own special role. We reach the top TOGETHER, not as individuals. We all have different capacities and methods to reaching our destination and we should never give up. Even if we don't reach them by ourselves, if we show support to each other ... WE WILL ... TOGETHER!!!

Saco jan, we'll never find our Armenian populace that we had in the 1918 war when every man, woman, old man and women and even older children fought against the enemy to win and finally create the free Armenia that they created against the empire of turkey (even though he was sick and defeated) nevertheless a mega huger country at the time than we were. I think you and I are dreaming of those times and wish to have the Armenian brave and the patriotic people of those times. But again Saco jan, remember it was under Dashnagtsoutyoun's leadership that they did all those bravery and the unity as a wonderful population. Let's not forget that Saco.

I agree but lets also not forget that if the people didn't work together and cherish each other's FULL support, the Dashnaks wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING. Nothing at all. So I hope you understand what I'm saying. I'm talking about the roots, not the tree.

I say you need Dashnagtsoutyoun to do that Saco jan. If and when the people will be and vote for Dashnagtsoutyoun; as you already admitted with me; they are the true blue "gousagtsoutyoun" party who loves our land and our people. Therefore, for any party who is smart enough, brave enough and is devoted enough for their country and their people and their land; that's the party to be voted and followed by. Remember that and remember my words.

Yes Mam /0. Still though, I work with the people and think about them the most because no party will be able to do anything if the people don't change their rediculous attitude. Come to Armenia and you'll see what's going on. Shateru asumen "Indz inch". Du haskanumes te et incha nshanakum? Kaklan, vontste "KEZ INCH"? Our people are going through a dangerous identity crisis and these borders opening aren't helping.

I wish I wish I could stand by you now in the motherland and support you, but do now at this time that my heart, my soul and my mind as heavy as it may be it is with you lovely people. However one day when I make enough money I wish to go there and support all the poor people in our motherland to make a much strong nation.

Thank you Anoush jan. Same here. I think you can support me and everyone else properly though right NOW even, believe it or not. You don't have to phsyically be right here next to me. You'll see what I'm talking about soon enough. Regarding your coming to Armenia. It be great if you'd come ... I just hope the Armenia in your heart and mind right now won't change when you do ! Many people have left because of this pathetic gov. and the way our people think most of the time so my advice is, don't expect to see a golden nation. We have many problems and we have to get down to work. If I payed too much attention to all the garbage here, I'd leave, but I haven't and settled down, instead. Everything is very serious. I love my country and it's people but I'm not a fanatic or a blind nationalist. That is why I have been able to truly appreciate my country and see what many don't. Many come here with very high expectations and leave with most of them destroyed. They look at Armenia as if it's the holy land filled with milk and honey. I'm afraid it's nothing like that. My people suffer and I'm working my ass everyday, looking for ways to make my troubled nation stand up into the light and try my best to help my people every step of the way. If you want to live here, you have to appreciate Armenia for what she is and unite with the people and lose a lot of sweat to get her back on her feet. You can't live here if you think too materially, I'm afraid.

If your prepared for all that Anoush jan then I hope to see you here in the very, very near future . Hell, I'll be your Armenian guide, lol, if you don't mind.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

I was already thinking on the lines for voting or taking over the government if today's government is not doing the right things for Armenia or the future of our Republic.

I don't think any government is doing the right things for their country or the future of their people right now. This is what scares me.

[seruven]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

Today, I was reading an interview done with Nesrin Cavadzade, an Azerbaijani short film director and actress, living in Turkey. At the end of the interview there was a question about Turkish-Armenian border. Just wanted to translate that part:

Q: How do you feel as opening of Armenian-Turkish border is being discussed and it's told that Azeris will be offended? Would Azeri nation feel lonely and get angry if the border is opened?
Cavadzade: I can't know how some politicians will feel, but no nation would suffer from a more peaceful environement. Both reasonable Turks and reasonable Azeris will just be happy. As for me, if such a thing happens, I just become pleased. However, some nationalists.. Bleeding wounds do not heal easily. Nonetheless, these nations lived together as brothers for 75 years, and made thousands of marriages. Closest friends of my grandfather and my mother were Armenians. Both sides became instruments in a horrible game. You know the War of Karabagh, massacre of Khojaly... I don't think reasonable Azeris, who constitute the majority, will be upset.

Turkish source:http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.as...ticleID=932835

[Eddo211]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

Russia is comprehensive towards the processes of normalizing Armenian-Turkish relations which could strengthen Armenia’s strategic power, Viacheslav Nikonov, the President of “Politics” foundation and the member of Russian Public Palace said in a press conference. According to him Armenia will overcome its complex geo-political situation, as some neighboring countries had negative approach towards Armenia. Nikonov says that it would be a positive development giving opportunity to Russia to implement projects, economic ones, with Armenia and Turkey.

http://www.panorama.am/en/politics/2009/04/15/nikonov/

BUT……

Alexander Skakov from the Russian Institute of Strategic Research thinks that opening the Turkish and Armenian border will hamper Russian attempts to bring Armenia under its influence.
Today Armenia is under the Russian sphere of influence because it is confronting Azerbaijan and Turkey. Its connection to the rest of the world through Georgia is partly blocked and therefore the basis of its communications is Iran.
The Americans think they can offer Armenia better options and thus attract it into the US sphere of interest. Skakov says that if Armenia receives direct access to the Turkish coast, Black Sea and Mediterranean it will engage in more direct trade with the West, bypassing Russia. The West will also guarantee Armenia’s sovereignty. Skakov thinks that after opening the border with Turkey Armenia will become less dependent on Russia and more on NATO and the EU.

http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/en/content/2009/04/24/opening-of-armenia-turkish-border-weakening-russian-influence/

AND……

"There are people here (Turkey) who still feel resentment. The border shouldn't be reopened until they are reassured," he said.
A breakthrough between Turkey and Armenia could help shore up stability in the Caucasus, criss-crossed by oil and gas pipelines which make it of strategic importance to Russia, Europe and the United States.
Western diplomats are concerned that in retaliation for the border reopening, Azerbaijan might be unwilling to sell its gas in the future through Turkey to Europe, and instead send most of it to Russia for re-export.
Despite the concerns, tentative cross-border contacts have generated fragile optimism among many in eastern Turkey, where livelihoods are largely made from farming and where per capita income is around a tenth of levels in affluent western Turkey.
That optimism is shared in landlocked Armenia. A reopening of the border would provide a huge boost to the economy, having already lost out on lucrative energy transit deals and trade with eastern Turkey.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=101240

Yerevan –Moscow TV space bridge entitled “Armenia-Turkey: Progress in bilateral relations or geopolitical games of world powers?” launched today. Discussions, involving normalization of Armenian-Turkish ties focused on positive economic influence of Armenian-Turkish border opening. Still, according to Yerevan Genocide Museum Director Hayk Demoyan , Yerevan did not pursue economic gains in Armenian-Turkish negotiations, though Ankara is trying its hardest to prove Armenia's deplorable state and desperate need for opening border with Turkey. Turkish Prime Minister's statement about opening of Armenian-Turkish border determined by NKR conflict settlement is another one of Turkey’s delusions. “Armenia will never agree to a bargain with Turkey or risk NKR people’s safety,” Hayk Demoyan stressed.

http://www.armtown.com/news/en/pan/20090422/30741/

Now this is deep……. Look at number 7 recommendation to Armenia.

Outside powers have important interests and roles. The U.S. has long fostered Armenia-Turkey reconciliation, seeking thereby to consolidate the independence of all three former Soviet republics in the south Caucasus and to support east-west transit corridors and energy pipelines from the Caspian Sea. Washington was notable in its backing of efforts that kick-started civil society dialogue between Turkey and Armenia. The Obama administration is working hard at repairing the damage done to U.S. relations with Turkey by the war in Iraq. Although Obama repeatedly promised on the campaign trail to formally recognise the 1915 forced relocation and massacres of Armenians under the Ottoman Empire as genocide, he should continue to steer the prudent middle course he has adopted as president. The U.S. Congress, which has a draft resolution before it, should do the same. At this sensitive moment of Turkish-Armenian convergence, statements that focus on the genocide term, either to deny or recognise it, would either enrage Armenians or unleash a nationalist Turkish reaction that would damage U.S.-Turkish ties and set back Turkey-Armenia reconciliation for years.

RECOMMENDATIONS

To the Government of Turkey:

1. Agree, ratify and implement a normalisation package including the opening of borders, establishment of diplomatic relations and bilateral commissions; continue to prepare public opinion for reconciliation; cultivate a pro-settlement constituency among Armenians; and avoid threatening or penalising Armenia for outside factors like resolutions or statements in third countries recognising a genocide.

2. Avoid sacrificing implementation of the normalisation package to demands for immediate resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and withdrawal of Armenian troops from occupied territories in Azerbaijan; and seek opportunities to show Baku that by easing Yerevan’s fears of encirclement, normalised Turkey-Armenia relations may ultimately speed up such an Armenian withdrawal.

3. Make goodwill towards Armenia clear through gestures such as joint work on preserving the ancient ruins of Ani, stating explicitly that Turkey will recognise and protect Armenian historical and religious heritage throughout the country.

4. Encourage universities and institutes to pursue broader research on matters pertaining to the events of 1915, preferably with the engagement of Armenian and third-party scholars; modernise history books and remove all prejudice from them; and increase funding for cataloguing and management of the Ottoman-era archives.

To the Government of Armenia:

5. Agree, ratify, and implement a normalisation package including the opening of borders, establishment of diplomatic relations and bilateral commissions; continue to prepare public opinion for reconciliation; and avoid statements or international actions relating to genocide recognition that could inflame Turkish public opinion against the current process.

6. Agree together with Azerbaijan to the OSCE Minsk Group basic principles on a Nagorno-Karabakh settlement; then start withdrawals from Armenian-occupied territories in Azerbaijan; and pursue peace with Azerbaijan in full consciousness that only in this way can normalisation with Turkey be consolidated.

7. Make clear that Armenia has no territorial claim on Turkey by explicitly recognising its territorial integrity within the borders laid out in the 1921 Treaty of Kars.

8. Encourage universities and institutes to pursue more research on matters relating to the events of 1915, preferably with the engagement of Turkish and third-party scholars; modernise history books and remove all prejudice from them; and organise the cataloguing of known Armenian archives pertaining to the events in and around 1915 wherever they may be located.

To the United States, Russia and the European Union and its Member States:

9. Avoid legislation, statements and actions that might inflame public opinion on either side and so could upset the momentum towards Turkey-Armenia normalisation and reconciliation.

10. Raise the seniority and intensify the engagement of the U.S., Russian and French co-chairs of the OSCE Minsk Group until Armenia and Azerbaijan reach final agreement on Minsk Group basic principles for a settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

11. Back up Turkey-Armenia reconciliation with projects to encourage region-wide interaction, heritage preservation and confidence building; and support as requested any new bilateral historical commission or sub-commission, development of archive management and independent Turkish- or Armenian-led scholarly endeavours to research into aspects of the 1915 events.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/ICG/ec344a19864c6d8bd71c158143ac3028.htm

[Eddo211]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

I can see why the Dashnaks are furious and are planning to run as opposition. The more I look into this the worst it gets. It appears that eventually in the future they want us (one at a time) to forget about Treaty of Serves, give the buffer Zones back to Azeris, and start a scholarly study of the known fact AG which I am sure Turkey with the help of friends will eventually burry it in the sand. Oh, son of a Beyatch, of all the lowdown dirty tricks. This is not to mention the negative impacts of Boarder opening.

Saco jan, guys and gals…..how about starting an online petition directed at the Armenian Government for starters? Damn.

[Anoush]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

I can see why the Dashnaks are furious and are planning to run as opposition. The more I look into this the worst it gets. It appears that eventually in the future they want us (one at a time) to forget about Treaty of Serves, give the buffer Zones back to Azeris, and start a scholarly study of the known fact AG which I am sure Turkey with the help of friends will eventually burry it in the sand. Oh, son of a Beyatch, of all the lowdown dirty tricks. This is not to mention the negative impacts of Boarder opening.

Saco jan, guys and gals…..how about starting an online petition directed at the Armenian Government for starters? Damn.

You said it Eddo and Saco; Damn is right!!!!! NO way NO how. They want they want and they want. You see guys? Those vermin big or small countries thanks to the Jeudio/Americans or even Russians they want us to give up the Genocide issue.... to give up our demands and our rights of monetary remuneration towards our survivors.... NO LANDS back to Armenia..... give back our Artsakh after winning the war and thousands and thousands of our heroes giving their sweet lives for it..... and finally this is an Israel-Jeudio-turkish trick to minimize Armenia more and more, rob us from our legal SEVRI Tashnakir's rights and wipe us from the face of the earth for once and for all. Never mind after opening the borders their vermin people will come like pests and dirty or even take over our little land that we have.

As in the past, the big selfish bummish powers are screwing us royally once again!

I will gladly go for the petition Eddo and I choose heartily for Dashnaks to run for opposition! I'll sign for that too! Trust me guys, they're the only true blue Armenian leaders who will save and maintain our motherland!!!!!!!

[VartanK]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

well, we hayastancis call the diasporan armenians speaking the western dialect "axpars". There is a difference. Hayastancis came from Armenia (or at least at a small age) to other countries especailly US during the 90's especially early 90's. Axpars are well americanized into american culture, language because it is their grandparents who came from Ottoman Empire and some forgot about their Armenian identity and assimilated into whatever country. The difference is enough to call you guys axpars. There is cultural, hayastancis have a lot of the Soviet Armenian culture ( we use Russian words in speaking). The list can go on, but in the end many hayastancis refer to the diasporans or people who speak in the diaporan dialect as axpars. What is the problem?

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I don't like the word "axpars" because I have friends who were born in Soviet Armenia but were called "axpars" because they parents came from the diaspora, and felt as if discriminated. Let's say that some have a negative perception of the word, and diasporan or non-resident Armenians sound more neutral.

[VartanK]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

The Armenian government has lied to us on more occasions then you can count. They have been screwing with us for the last 18 years and I don't know why you trust our officials so much. Do you live in Armenia?

All governments lie and maybe the Armenian government more than some, I don't know.
No, I don't live in Armenia.

[Mos]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I don't like the word "axpars" because I have friends who were born in Soviet Armenia but were called "axpars" because they parents came from the diaspora, and felt as if discriminated. Let's say that some have a negative perception of the word, and diasporan or non-resident Armenians sound more neutral.

Probably his parents spoke Western dialect.

[Anoush]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

*The patriot holds the Armenian flag to his heart and shouts out UNITE*

Yes Saco jan, we can all learn from your deep desires to have our people be united, supportive and respectful.

Yes Mam /0. Still though, I work with the people and think about them the most because no party will be able to do anything if the people don't change their rediculous attitude. Come to Armenia and you'll see what's going on. Shateru asumen "Indz inch". Du haskanumes te et incha nshanakum? Kaklan, vontste "KEZ INCH"? Our people are going through a dangerous identity crisis and these borders opening aren't helping.

I understand what you are saying. They are caught up in their everyday non-selfless lifestyle and they careless about their beloved Republic. Which should be adorned and highly regarded; and some don't. Sometimes though, a few super patriotic Armenians can change that by websites, patriotic songs, the media, literature, writing articles, poetry and essays. I know it is hard when there is not many jobs available and the people are not content and some are even hungry; but that is why corruption should end in our small landlocked country and the rich must help the people by opening up businesses, institutions and helping people to have jobs. Why do people when they get rich get corrupted? Instead help the underprivileged ones, help your small country.

Why doesn't God make the real patriots very rich so that we can move things and make good things happen?

Thank you Anoush jan. Same here. I think you can support me and everyone else properly though right NOW even, believe it or not. You don't have to phsyically be right here next to me. You'll see what I'm talking about soon enough. Regarding your coming to Armenia. It be great if you'd come ... I just hope the Armenia in your heart and mind right now won't change when you do ! Many people have left because of this pathetic gov. and the way our people think most of the time so my advice is, don't expect to see a golden nation. We have many problems and we have to get down to work. If I payed too much attention to all the garbage here, I'd leave, but I haven't and settled down, instead. Everything is very serious. I love my country and it's people but I'm not a fanatic or a blind nationalist. That is why I have been able to truly appreciate my country and see what many don't. Many come here with very high expectations and leave with most of them destroyed. They look at Armenia as if it's the holy land filled with milk and honey. I'm afraid it's nothing like that. My people suffer and I'm working my ass everyday, looking for ways to make my troubled nation stand up into the light and try my best to help my people every step of the way. If you want to live here, you have to appreciate Armenia for what she is and unite with the people and lose a lot of sweat to get her back on her feet. You can't live here if you think too materially, I'm afraid.

If your prepared for all that Anoush jan then I hope to see you here in the very, very near future . Hell, I'll be your Armenian guide, lol, if you don't mind.

Saco jan, when I go to Armenia I will not go there to have a jolly good time; but to see how I can help out the people. I want to go there with money; because I will want to move things and help out the underprivilaged and the poor in there so they'll thrive.