Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[londontsi]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

.


I want to raise another serious concern.

There was a lot of "hoo ha" about the Russian-Armenian cooperation in the military field.
One of the points of this agreement was that ( ... more like we were told ) no part of this cooperation would be sold/passed to a third party.
Certainly not to an enemy of Armenia.

Considering the permissive arms sale policy that Russia is adopting,

What guarantee do we have, that we will not be sharpening knives for Russia to sell to our enemies.

.

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

EU commissioner for enlargement and neighborhood policy Mr. Stefan Fule is in Yerevan;

The EU-Armenia Association Agreement, including Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Zone is expected to be signed during November 2013 EU Summit in Vilnius.

http://www.lragir.am/index/eng/0/politics/view/30432

EU commissioner for enlargement and neighborhood policy Mr. Stefan Fule's speech in Yerevan;

Chairman, Distinguished Guests,

I am delighted to have the opportunity to address you today. It is always a pleasure to visit Armenia, and to see the roots of a flourishing culture which has had such an impact across the globe.
At the beginning of the 21st century, the increasingly fast-paced globalisation brings new opportunities; opportunities that go well beyond countries simply seeking to survive, prosper, or furnish citizens with jobs and ensure that their basic needs are met. Globalisation reaches well beyond this: it creates conditions to unlock and fulfil the creative potential inherent to each of us individually, and aggregated in societies - civil and political.
To fulfil this unique potential we need a vision. And we need instruments – essentially a roadmap - to reach it. But in this increasingly interdependent world, even that may not be enough – what we all need are partners who share and understand our vision, and with whom we can agree on joint instruments, a joint roadmap.

Partners who are predictable, reliable and have shared rules of the game. I believe we are at a significant moment in European Union-Armenia relations. We are developing a partnership which is both wider and deeper than it has been up to now. We are very close to finalising our Association Agreement, including a Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Area (P.S. this is only for Armenia, Georgia and Moldova; Azerbaijan is excluded). I am confident that this will bring concrete benefits and new opportunities to all citizens.
In addition to offering an important trade partnership with the EU - a market with 500 million consumers, the Agreement addresses many concrete issues which affect everyday life. As a result, for example, consumer protection, both in terms of product safety and value for money, or road safety, or air quality are improved. What is more, it will also strengthen the links between the people of Armenia and the people of Europe.
For the European Union, partnerships are not only about economics, business and regulatory frameworks. If we are serious in implementing our commitments, as we should be, our political and trade relations will become much stronger: through the regulatory convergence of our partners with the European Union and the effective sharing of values. Human rights, democracy and fundamental freedoms will be so-called "essential elements" of our new Agreement, in other words the absolute core that both sides must respect and promote.
The Association Agreement, and the Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Area which it includes, have taken a long time to negotiate. We have worked with our Armenian partners to define a set of reforms which will not only open up new opportunities in terms of market access, mobility and co-operation, but which will allow Armenia to exploit those opportunities with strengthened state institutions, labour market, and infrastructure.
One of the reasons I am so keen that we complete our negotiations is so that we can prepare the Agreement in its final form and share the contents with citizens – I do believe that it will open a new chapter not only in European Union-Armenia relations but also in Armenia's own development.

And we are ready not only to provide financial support of our own, but to encourage other international donors to support reform projects. This can be a foundation for solid medium-term planning, focusing on a common set of goals and under government leadership.
Let me add a couple of words on the broader context of our partnership. As you know, EU-Armenia relations are developed through the Eastern Partnership, that is to say the Eastern dimension of the European Neighbourhood Policy. This policy framework is of great value both to the European Union and also its partners because it is allowing us to bring our relationships to a new level.
In addition to the political aspects of our dialogue with and between our Eastern partners, there is also very practical sectoral cooperation that is underway, in areas ranging from transport to education. In September this year for instance, your beautiful country will host an informal dialogue of Eastern Partnership ministers of education, which Commissioner Vassiliou and I will attend. There we will jointly seek to further enhance opportunities for cooperation between the EU and our partners on higher education.
Ultimately, the Eastern Partnership allows our partners to join forces with the European Union politically and economically. And jointly, the European Union and its partners will be in a better position to face the challenges and opportunities. Needless to say, I see a strong case for participation in a multilateral format of this sort for a country with no access to sea, whose borders with two of its neighbours are currently closed.
Let me also use this opportunity to dispel a myth: The Eastern Partnership, some say, uses a one-size-fits-all-approach leading to uniform relationships in which the individuality of each of the partners gets lost. However, exactly the opposite is true: While we do use a common tool box, including mobility, approximation to European Union standards and values, we work with partners to find tailor-made solutions. Differentiation is a key concept in the Eastern Partnership, and Armenia is no exception.
During my visit I have been discussing with government, parliamentarians and civil society how to address some of the main priorities in our current relations. Let me mention six of them.
· Democracy: good progress has been made, but we should continue work to implement all recommendations made by the OSCE after recent elections, including changes to the legislative framework.

· Human rights: we should ensure effective implementation of the National Human Rights Strategy, which is a basic building block for the shared values we want to encourage in our Association.

· Fundamental freedoms: to give one example, legislation on broadcasting needs to be modernised in compliance with the recommendations of the OSCE and the Council of Europe.

· Equality: where steps need to be taken harmonise legislation with the European Union acquis in the areas of gender equality and non-discrimination.

· Intensifying the fight against corruption: this is a cross-cutting issue with an impact on every aspect of national development.

· Reforming governance and strengthening institutions: central among these would be measures to reform the law enforcement and judicial sectors, especially to increase public trust in the independence of the judiciary, to improve the training of judges and to review the code of criminal procedure.
I cannot end today without a word on the conflict. I know this is a painful and difficult subject but it is one that the European Union cannot hide from, either in Baku or here in Yerevan. I urge Armenia to step up efforts with Azerbaijan to reach an agreement on the Madrid Principles, in accordance with the commitments made by the Presidents of Armenia and Azerbaijan within the Minsk Group. We will continue to provide assistance to encourage progress in conflict settlement, and to support related peace-building activities.
Let me conclude my remarks by underlining that the European Union has a clear goal of forging deeper relations with all Armenians, across the political spectrum, from business, from civil society and among the population. In other words: an inclusive partnership.
The EU model of development and integration operates on the basis of "what you see is what you get" – in terms of setting clear goals in the different areas of co-operation: what we expect from Armenia and what the European Union should be offering in return. One of the key strengths of this model is that it makes the progress of our relations and of key reforms easier to visualise and easier to monitor, and the result is an important boost for accountability. That means all of you will have a role to play in making it a success. We are in this together.
The vision I mentioned earlier is a vision of Armenia’s modernisation and the fullest use of all its potential; a vision which will strengthen Armenia and its positive impact in the globalised world; a vision that will through this unique partnership also strengthen the EU. It is a win-win for all, the EU and Armenia but also its direct and further removed neighbours, irrespective of their size.

[Haykakan]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Funny how that whole article did not mention anything about the ultimatum the EU gave to Armenia. All that talk of democracy and human rights sounds great but it does not jive with the actions of the EU. I am not against joining the EU but i do not see how ultimatums reflect its so called values nor am i keen on the nature of this ultimatum. It is the EU which told Armenia that it has to choose between Russian union and the EU. There is no reason why Armenia cannot be a member of both unions except the ultimatum given by the EU.

[UrMistake]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Everyone made nice posts ,but lets not name eachother please :-)


Armenian politicians thank God when its about National security actually do something good , i hope everything goes well for Iran since is the most stable nation after armenia in the region , ballancing turkeys power very well historically

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

The question remains in my mind....how much did the Armenian Russians did to stop this arms transfer? it seems to me not a xxxxing thing but suck up to Russians, if this was US sending WMD we would have stopped them dead cold.

another question is why did this happen. Is it because of a new Russian leader that is changing foreign policy in the region or is it a warning from our comrades that Armenia's foreign policy is sawing too far for Russian comfort level and this is to punish our President for his balanced foreign policy.

I do not agree with you. US has been arming turkey for over 70 yrs, making baku reach enough to buy whatever armament they want with financing and participating in oil boom. WHAT HAVE US ARMENIANS STOPPED? Not a silch..... Are US armenians sucking up to americans???
Lets not talk big. Rather lets not talk while covering head to toe under worm blanket made in europe or USA.
Have you had any russian armenian justify arms sale to azeris? Nobody likes it. Especially russian Armenians. But again we should ask what has europe done for us? Will they send their ships to climb our mountains this time?
What are you guys talking about who is who's boss? And that according to whom?
In my opinion It is not fair from people who are not leaving in Armenia, to call the people there as russian subjects and suggest to turn to europe or someone else while having not a single positive point to back up but some european's big fat mouth. Forgetting that anything that we, Armenians have now to put up against the turks is supplied by russians from head to toe. Will russia stop selling arms to turks if we become enemies with them? (are we as a nation in a hurry for a twilight zone?)
Also why is it considetred lowering someones head ro russia if this simple reality is pointed out?
Haven't some people learned from history? Of europe's big fat mouth and empty promises way back from Berlin conference and causing the mass killings of Armenians whyle europe just armed turkey and collected Armenian orphans?
I get very bemused when people try to compare russia and europe.
I will not use a word that gets some feeling uneasy, but, what is the point in compairing anything? If europe is better partner, don't you think that it would allready be there as a partner, have a military contingent in Armenia, supply Armenia all the necessary armaments ?
Some people see a better economy with europe. Agree. But we say "Էշ, մի սատկիր, շուտով գարուն կգա"...
What is happening in Armenia-Russia-azerbaijan triangle is a very liquid and unstable political evolution. You know roughly why is it happening. But it is important to realise that friend or foe, we are going to be face to face with russians, Europe will never be able to balance russia's influence in our region and anybody going radical should keep Georgia's example in mind.
Crude? Yes. We can complain, curse the russians, stop sleepng with their women, but not a lot will change for better. We should be weary of the worse...

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I do not agree with you. US has been arming turkey for over 70 yrs, making baku reach enough to buy whatever armament they want with financing and participating in oil boom. WHAT HAVE US ARMENIANS STOPPED? Not a silch..... Are US armenians sucking up to americans???
Lets not talk big. Rather lets not talk while covering head to toe under worm blanket made in europe or USA.
Have you had any russian armenian justify arms sale to azeris? Nobody likes it. Especially russian Armenians. But again we should ask what has europe done for us? Will they send their ships to climb our mountains this time?
What are you guys talking about who is who's boss? And that according to whom?
In my opinion It is not fair from people who are not leaving in Armenia, to call the people there as russian subjects and suggest to turn to europe or someone else while having not a single positive point to back up but some european's big fat mouth. Forgetting that anything that we, Armenians have now to put up against the turks is supplied by russians from head to toe. Will russia stop selling arms to turks if we become enemies with them? (are we as a nation in a hurry for a twilight zone?)
Also why is it considetred lowering someones head ro russia if this simple reality is pointed out?
Haven't some people learned from history? Of europe's big fat mouth and empty promises way back from Berlin conference and causing the mass killings of Armenians whyle europe just armed turkey and collected Armenian orphans?
I get very bemused when people try to compare russia and europe.
I will not use a word that gets some feeling uneasy, but, what is the point in compairing anything? If europe is better partner, don't you think that it would allready be there as a partner, have a military contingent in Armenia, supply Armenia all the necessary armaments ?
Some people see a better economy with europe. Agree. But we say "Էշ, մի սատկիր, շուտով գարուն կգա"...
What is happening in Armenia-Russia-azerbaijan triangle is a very liquid and unstable political evolution. You know roughly why is it happening. But it is important to realise that friend or foe, we are going to be face to face with russians, Europe will never be able to balance russia's influence in our region and anybody going radical should keep Georgia's example in mind.
Crude? Yes. We can complain, curse the russians, stop sleepng with their women, but not a lot will change for better. We should be weary of the worse...

If you stick your head out of your ass you would know that US Armenians have already stopped several arms sell to Azerbaijan, let alone any Weapons Of Mass xxxxing Destruction......I don't give a xxxx about Russia or US or Europe.

Speak as an Armenian or your words are nothing but an insult to patriots.

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

EU commissioner for enlargement and neighborhood policy Mr. Stefan Fule's speech in Yerevan;

Chairman, Distinguished Guests,
.......
But in this increasingly interdependent world, even that may not be enough – what we all need are partners who share and understand our vision, and with whom we can agree on joint instruments, a joint roadmap.
Partners who are predictable, reliable and have shared rules of the game. I believe we are at a significant moment in European Union-Armenia relations. We are developing a partnership which is both wider and deeper than it has been up to now. We are very close to finalising our Association Agreement, including a Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Area (P.S. this is only for Armenia, Georgia and Moldova; Azerbaijan is excluded). I am confident that this will bring concrete benefits and new opportunities to all citizens.......

I do not agree with you. US has been arming turkey for over 70 yrs, making baku reach enough to buy whatever armament they want with financing and participating in oil boom. WHAT HAVE US ARMENIANS STOPPED? Not a silch..... Are US armenians sucking up to americans???
Lets not talk big. Rather lets not talk while covering head to toe under worm blanket made in europe or USA.
Have you had any russian armenian justify arms sale to azeris? Nobody likes it. Especially russian Armenians. But again we should ask what has europe done for us? Will they send their ships to climb our mountains this time?
What are you guys talking about who is who's boss? And that according to whom?
In my opinion It is not fair from people who are not leaving in Armenia, to call the people there as russian subjects and suggest to turn to europe or someone else while having not a single positive point to back up but some european's big fat mouth.
Forgetting that anything that we, Armenians have now to put up against the turks is supplied by russians from head to toe. Will russia stop selling arms to turks if we become enemies with them? (are we as a nation in a hurry for a twilight zone?)
Also why is it considetred lowering someones head ro russia if this simple reality is pointed out?
Haven't some people learned from history? Of europe's big fat mouth and empty promises way back from Berlin conference and causing the mass killings of Armenians whyle europe just armed turkey and collected Armenian orphans?
I get very bemused when people try to compare russia and europe.
I will not use a word that gets some feeling uneasy, but, what is the point in compairing anything? If europe is better partner, don't you think that it would allready be there as a partner, have a military contingent in Armenia, supply Armenia all the necessary armaments ?
Some people see a better economy with europe. Agree. But we say "Էշ, մի սատկիր, շուտով գարուն կգա"...
What is happening in Armenia-Russia-azerbaijan triangle is a very liquid and unstable political evolution. You know roughly why is it happening. But it is important to realise that friend or foe, we are going to be face to face with russians, Europe will never be able to balance russia's influence in our region and anybody going radical should keep Georgia's example in mind.
Crude? Yes. We can complain, curse the russians, stop sleepng with their women, but not a lot will change for better. We should be weary of the worse...

I see you are fond of talking yourself.

It would be better if you put a little bit dignity and something intelligent/reasonable in your "speech".

When people don’t miss any opportunity to harm/humiliate its own nation’s dignity on a daily bases, it might indicate that either they pretend to be Armenians but, in fact, belong to our enemies or they are their Armenian decent employees; in charge of affecting Armenia/Armenians image on the Internet.

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

If you stick your head out of your ass you would know that US Armenians have already stopped several arms sell to Azerbaijan, let alone any Weapons Of Mass xxxxing Destruction......I don't give a xxxx about Russia or US or Europe.

Speak as an Armenian or your words are nothing but an insult to patriots.

Maybe speaking as an Eastern Armenian is not very clear to you. A patriot would not throw insult on a whole diaspora block as Russian-Armenians are.
I am starting to think that arguments here are like broken record squicks. I bring issues and don't get any discussion or answers but personal insults.
Nobody should fool themselvs as having a political victory while in fact USA plays the dirtiest game with turks/azerbaijan. And the theatricals of keeping US hands clean by supposedly "not supplying arms due to lack of democracy" or Armenian lobby groups is only thin veiled lie.
A blockade of a country is an international act of war or a hostile act that is in violation of UN charter under which US (or european countries too) have signed. So how is that US or Europe will block their companies and money lenders from doing business with Iran, Syria, Cuba or others that have "violated international law" and "endangered Piece", but would not limit any business with turkey or azerbaijan while both are blockading Armenia ( a UN member and a "european partnership member"), rejecting international piece efforts and threatening with war and annihilation? In turkey's case add unwillingness to accept guilt in genocide and harassing minorities untill this day. How can we say that we have changed US policy if the game is still on "G" word as to say or not to say? There is nothing to brag about. All the azerbaijani strength comes from unrestricted western money flow. The smerches were bought 8 years ago too. I guess it was not russia to talk about, or russians were stupid enough to swallow $1BLN bait this time and here starts a histeria that can really alter public opinion and start the orange revolution which is basically nothing more than a covert western effort to drive a wedge between Armenia and it's geopolitical partner, and which have been tried so many times allready without success. The game, "the big game" (british concept) goes back a couple of centuries and consists of isolating russia and restricting it's drive towards mediterranean and middle asia. In that Armenians are a pawn only imortant as a platform that russia has now and has to loose, just like Georgia or azerbaijan.
Now, european economic partnership is good if it is true. But if it is just a bait, then we will be lost. Europe or US will never stick their neck out for Armenia. As they did not in Georgia in regards to Abkhazia and south Osetia. But Georgia has sea and survived. We will never survive if loosing Artsakh. So are we gonna swallow economic bait? Or go so angry with russia as to damage relations? I know, some say look what russia has been doing. But they have been doing it for a couple of hundred years and still we have not found any reliable partner to replace them. And when time comes, we use russians to stick to that piece of land.

I don't want to go deep into issues or point to any difficulties for any diaspora groups, but I think it is very none patriotic when one makes bad remarks to another.
Now not agreeing with your bad comments about russian-Armenians is very patriotic for me. If you did not like the word "Are US armenians sucking up to americans???" then you should not have said "how much did the Armenian Russians did to stop this arms transfer? it seems to me not a xxxxing thing but suck up to Russians". That was not very patriotic. Russia is not like US. nobody can insult russian-Armeians for not doing what US-Armenians are doing. Similarly, I will not allow anybody to insult US-Armenians for not doing whatever they expect or presume from their point of view.

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Maybe speaking as an Eastern Armenian is not very clear to you. A patriot would not throw insult on a whole diaspora block as Russian-Armenians are.

This time you guys deserve it....not only you allow a game changer WMD to be sent to the enemy that can potentially destroy Spetanakert , you guys are not even protesting the sells transfer, complete xxxxing silence, same motherxxxxers who come here and tell us how great their influence is as Russian Armenians and how xxxxed up we US Armenians are. Well, at least we don't talk big.

I want to know why Russian Armenians have not lifted a finger, are they scared of their Russian comrades? don't you think this is a legitimate question as to why this inaction and deep silence from them?

I am starting to think that arguments here are like broken record squicks. I bring issues and don't get any discussion or answers but personal insults.

Issues you bring have been beat to death in this forum and a little research will help you out.

Nobody should fool themselvs as a political victory while in fact USA plays the dirtiest game with turks/azerbaijan. And the theatricals of keeping US hands clean by supposedly "not supplying arms due to lack of democracy" or Armenian lobby groups is only thin veiled lie.
A blockade of a country is an international act of war or a hostile act that is in violation of UN charter under which US (or european countries too) have signed. So how is that US or Europe will block their companies and money lenders from doing business with Iran, Syria, Cuba or others that have "violated international law" and "endangered Piece", but would not limit any business with turkey or azerbaijan while both are blockading Armenia ( a UN member and a "european partnership member"), rejecting international piece efforts and threatening with war and annihilation? In turkey's case add unwillingness to accept guilt in genocide and harassing minorities untill this day. How can we say that we have changed US policy if the game is still on "G" word as to say or not to say? There is nothing to brag about. All the azerbaijani strength comes from unrestricted western money flow. The smerches were bought 8 years ago too. I guess it was not russia to talk about, or russians were stupid enough to swallow $1BLN bait and here starts a histeria that can really alter public opinion and start the orange revolution which is basically nothing more than a covert western effort to drive a wedge between Armenia and it's geopolitical partner, and which have been tried so many times allready without success.

Here you guys go again....us vs them, that is what I m tryin to get across

I don't want to go deep into issues or point to any difficulties for any diaspora groups, but I think it is very none patriotic when one makes bad remarks to another.

You should get deep into the issue because what is being a patriot is to be Armenian first at heart....this Russian Armenian US Armenian, we are better, you are wrong is all bullcrap that serves Turkey, US, Russia, etc. We must be as one, I challenge you to think like that instead of the crap you wrote. Join me in this, its not easy.

Now not agreeing with your bad comments about russian-Armenians is very patriotic for me. If you did not like the word "Are US armenians sucking up to americans???" then you should not have said "how much did the Armenian Russians did to stop this arms transfer? it seems to me not a xxxxing thing but suck up to Russians". That was not very patriotic. Russia is not like US.

Look at Russia and US governments as tools to be used to further our cause.....thats how I think, they are both the same but if you think Russia is your savior and your knight in shinning armor that will save you and you don't have to do a damn thing then we are done talking.

Russia or US or any other country has nothing whatsoever to do with being a Armenian patriot.......a Armenian nationalist its a different story, I am not that, I do not have tunnel vision.

Think about it....

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[QUOTE=Eddo211;343599]This time you guys deserve it....






And WHO desides it YOU....?/??

You call yourself patriot insulting others?
Shut your dirty mouth man.
Stop using this WMD issue to insult others. It is not only WMD but many many other weapons too. And people that are going to die from it are mainly eastern armenians, not you guys. So stop pretending to be more catolic than the pope OK? If you care about it so much than you should be living in Stepanakert and then maybe you would know if anybody complained or lifted their finger or protested or what's goin on there. Or maybe you can teach russian-Armenians how to protest or do whatever needs to be done.


Can you put one and one together? on one hand you are insulting russian Armenians, and on the other saying that we are one?