Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Right….we don’t need instructions either, specially from you.

You attacking a guy who you know has been banned and can’t defend himself. That is pathetic.

I didnt know he was banned, not that it would matter anyways. As for this thread all i gotta say is placing limitations on people is just plain wrong. Women can do almost everything men can and telling them otherwise is just not right. The differences between sexes are not big enough to bar members of one sex from doing any job. Family always comes first for guys and gals but this does not have to be a career ending event. Plenty of women can manage careers and family. Some of the best rulers on earth were women like catharine the great and eliziabeth. We armenians have women heros to like hripsime and gayane and taguhis.. I thought this thread was a great idea but it sure took a bad turn because of the same kind of intolorance and backwardness we witnessed in some of the other threads. It is sad but better it come out then corrupt from within.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Civilitas Connects the Women's Resource Center of Armenia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIgXMacOIkg

Sergei Kapinos: Armenian women’s potential not used
06.02.2010 12:55 GMT+04:00 Print version Send to mail

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Generally, Armenia is not a country where gender issues are easily resolved, according to the head of the OSCE Office in Yerevan.

“Armenian women do not seem constrained but there are environments where their potential is not used, for example security system,” Sergei Kapinos told a PanARMENIAN.Net reporter. “To help women fulfill their potential, Armenia should take up a correct social policy. Woman is the keeper of the family hearth. But if her family experiences problems, she will not be able to engage in public activities.”

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Levon, I'm talking about normal women not the selfish, materialistic, self-centred sl*ts.

I understand, but it's important to look and see what kind of cultural environments are more likely to create the kind of females that you just described(and subsequently the similar kind of males). It is my belief that westernized, liberal cultures that focus more on individual pleasures than family are more prone to creating those kinds of people.

Of course, I'd work with pleasure to help him in that particular situation. After all, isn't it the point of a healthy relationship?

That's good to know. The point I was trying to make is that by accepting the responsibility of being a co-provider for the family one loses the privilege of being the one to quit work whenever one wants.

And you don't marry the person for his money or his good job, that's like prostitution, if you ask me...

That's a point of view. Would marrying someone for good looks, intelligence, or personality amount to prostitution as well? I don't think considering money or job status amounts to prostitution as a successful family cannot be built (without a lot of troubles) without resources such as money or a good job, but I don't think these should be the only factors considered.

He brings her into his life knowing all the consequences and does that for her not out of obligation but out of love, nothing more beautiful than that.

That's true. Every person that marries should be responsible for his/her decisions, but to say that a man supports his family not out of obligation, but out of love is far fetched. I think it's the love of his family that drives a man into the position of a life-long wage-slave. It is a responsibility accepted out of love for his family, which becomes an obligation.

No. Obviously compared to men, more women for various reasons prefer stay at home and not work.

Personally, I agree with you, and I believe that whenever possible mothers should stay home, rather than fathers. But that comes from my belief that men and women are not equal, and cannot be compared to men directly, and therefore the privileges, rights and responsibilities bestowed upon men and women cannot ever be the same.

I think a statement such as yours can only be view in light of beliefs similar to mine. If one asserts that men and women should be equal on all social levels, and should be granted the same rights and privileges as men, then women should also be granted the same responsibilities. This would entail the impossibility of granting women special privileges based on sex (such as staying home because women in general have more reasons to prefer to stay home than men).

As I said before, one cannot grant liberties afforded by a liberal society and still gain privileges afforded by a traditional society, as it becomes unfair to men, and thus not-equal.

Okay but responsibilities have a degree of importance and come in different 'forms'… when one of the responsibilities is not being handled properly, you sacrifice the less important one to handle the other properly.

I'm assuming you mean that the responsibility of being a provider for a woman is less important that that of being at home with kids, and the responsibility of being at home with kids for a men is less important than the responsibility of being a provider.

This is the traditional way of looking at a family, and I do agree with that.

If I've been able to get the job then I have the right to work. I don't want to go further with this, maybe you should define what you mean by 'right'.

Now, that's an individualistic way of looking at things. First of all, if you are a single woman responsible for yourself, then by all means, if you can and want to work, you have the privilege to do so. Also, the ability to do something, doesn't necessarily grant one to do something. As an example, just because one can trash someone's reputation, it doesn't give one the right to do so.

However, if you're married with children and have been staying home, you have accepted the responsibility of being a homemaker and your husband has accepted the responsibility of being a wage-slave. When you work, you take on the responsibility of being a provider as well. Once you do that, you no longer have the privilege to work, but rather you now have the responsibility to work. Since you are now a co-provider along with your husband, you no longer can quit your job without affecting the family situation, and when the situation calls for one parent to stay home you cannot claim that right as a woman (because women generally have more reasons to stay home than men). Since if you quit, your husband will become the sole provider again, it would be up to him to decide it he wants that responsibility. You cannot force it on. Thus, your right to work, is essentially the responsibility to work.

Here is what I mean by a right. A right is a privilege with an associated responsibility. A right cannot be granted without the associated responsibility, but so long as the responsibility is performed, a right cannot be taken away. On the other hand, a privilege can be granted and removed without any requirements.

Okay, I just thought women would be more attracted to those men that the one who can't even make himself an omlette.

So by that you are implying that if a man doesn't do chores for his woman, then he is unable to make himself an omelet? I think not wanting to do chores for a woman (unless necessary) is completely different from being a big baby who is unable to take care of himself.

And I also think that when you said attracted, you meant marriage-material, not lusty attraction.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

As for this thread all i gotta say is placing limitations on people is just plain wrong.

There is a fine line between placing limitations and discussing roles men and women play in a family setting. Armenian culture is family oriented, and as such matters pertaining to family are more important than matters pertaining to individual happiness.

Women can do almost everything men can and telling them otherwise is just not right.

Ok, so it's not right to tell women that they shouldn't go to war and die? Great idea, let's start encouraging Armenian women to go die at war so our birth rates become even lower than they are now.

The differences between sexes are not big enough to bar members of one sex from doing any job.

In Armenia, no one bars women from doing a job. If she qualifies, then she can do it. I think you are viewing Armenia assuming the situation there is the same as in Saudi-Arabia.
However, there is a difference between letting someone do something, and encouraging them to do it.

Family always comes first for guys and gals but this does not have to be a career ending event. Plenty of women can manage careers and family.

And plenty of others crumble under all the stress and responsibility. Is it worth creating the super-mom image in Armenia, where you know there will at least be as many failures as successes? NO

BTW, family is not a career ending event, it's a life ending event. Once you have kids, your life is no longer yours, at least until they become old enough to take care of themselves. Until that happens, one must consider child raising more important that one's personal goals outside of the family.

Some of the best rulers on earth were women like catharine the great and eliziabeth.

You mean, very few rulers on earth were women. Amongst the countless male rulers, there were a few female rulers. Just as in science, literature, engineering, art, music, etc.

We armenians have women heros to like hripsime and gayane and taguhis..

You mean, amongst the countless Armenian men that gave their lives so that we can preserve our names, our religion and our identity there were a few women who also decided to die for our cause. That's very respectable, but by emphasizing the few women, you are making irrelevant the countless Armenian men that died. Don't

I thought this thread was a great idea but it sure took a bad turn because of the same kind of intolorance and backwardness we witnessed in some of the other threads. It is sad but better it come out then corrupt from within.

Just because someone has opinions that differ from yours don't be too quick to judge them as intolerant and backward. That's called ignorance, and it's intolerant and backward.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I do not need to call you anything, people who think like you make themselves look pretty bad all by themselves. You completely ignore the fact that women historicaly were hardly put in a position to make a difference and the few that did get to that position and excelled you simply want to write them off as some kind of anomoly when in truth if given the chance many more would have been successful. The last thing i need is someone with much less experience then me in raising a family to tell me the right way to do it and what should or shouldnt be done and what a woman should or shouldnt do. There is no one way to do it right, there are many. Limiting yourself or your wife to one lifestyle is both needless and sahmanapag. You dont have to be a "wage slave" and she does not have to be a "house wife" for you to raise a happy and healthy family. Having a family is not a "life ending event". Sure family comes first but that does not mean you cannot engage in satisfying your personal needs and desires at the same time. It is not always a either or thing you can do some of the things you always wanted and still be a good dad and a good mom, as a matter of fact that will set a much healthier example for your childeren then the wage slave mentality you describe. I run a business, am working on my MBA, take care of my family and still make time to go icefishing. Teaching was too much with everything else i was doing so i quit and guess what-the world did not come to a end. Being a devoted family man does not have to mean turning yourself into a wage slave martyr you describe. And quite frankly i agree with Lucin-if a woman marries a man for his money then how is that different then prostitution? Not that i am trying to badmouth the oldest profession on earth but lets call things for what they are. There is more then one way to do most things and the best way may depend on the individual or in this case the members in the family. Some may be fine with the wage slave/houswife approach while others will decide to take a different appproach. There is no right or wrong way here as long as the family stays the priority. You do need to be a responcible parent-wife-husband but that doesnt mean being a wage slave or a house wife or not doing what you want in life. Good grandparents can be lifesavers when it comes to families and they are worth mentioning to. They can play important roles in the family (sometimes in a bad way to). The one way mentality of yours is what i have a problem with. There are more ways then one to do it right and your assessment of the wage slave/houswife family unit being the only right way to raise a armenian family is just simply wrong and my family is living proof among thousends of other families. Had my parents thought the way you do our family would have been in big trouble when my dad passed away at a early age. My mom was a practicing doctor because my dad encouraged her to persue her career and was able to provide for my sister and i. A housewife in the same situation would be in a great deal of trouble along with her childeren. Having a duel income is a family insurence policy. People raise happy and healthy kids in different kinds of family settings. Being a good parent does not have to mean being a wage slave or a houswife but it can mean that to. What works for one family may not work for another since people are different thus placing needless limitations on people and families is simply insane.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I do not need to call you anything, people who think like you make themselves look pretty bad all by themselves. You completely ignore the fact that women historicaly were hardly put in a position to make a difference and the few that did get to that position and excelled you simply want to write them off as some kind of anomoly when in truth if given the chance many more would have been successful.

He's claiming when given the choice, most women choose to stay at home to raise their kids. He's not "thinking" like anybody. Somebody has to stay home with the kids unless they can afford day care or a nanny. Life isn't like the Cosby show where both parents are professionals but somehow are still home all the time to take care of the household and parent the kids. Usually one of the parents has to have some flexibility with their hours at work.

The last thing i need is someone with much less experience then me in raising a family to tell me the right way to do it and what should or shouldnt be done and what a woman should or shouldnt do. There is no one way to do it right, there are many. Limiting yourself or your wife to one lifestyle is both needless and sahmanapag. You dont have to be a "wage slave" and she does not have to be a "house wife" for you to raise a happy and healthy family. Having a family is not a "life ending event". Sure family comes first but that does not mean you cannot engage in satisfying your personal needs and desires at the same time. It is not always a either or thing you can do some of the things you always wanted and still be a good dad and a good mom, as a matter of fact that will set a much healthier example for your childeren then the wage slave mentality you describe. I run a business, am working on my MBA, take care of my family and still make time to go icefishing. Teaching was too much with everything else i was doing so i quit and guess what-the world did not come to a end. Being a devoted family man does not have to mean turning yourself into a wage slave martyr you describe.

Sounds like you work way harder than most of our dads did growing up and they were able to provide for their family with 1 income. Shouldn't you have less of a workload since you aren't the only one supporting the family?

And quite frankly i agree with Lucin-if a woman marries a man for his money then how is that different then prostitution? Not that i am trying to badmouth the oldest profession on earth but lets call things for what they are.

If a woman marries a bum with no future, how is that any different than stupidity? That's usually why first marriages fail and then the second time around the woman smartens up and looks for money. That's probably closer to prostitution.

There is more then one way to do most things and the best way may depend on the individual or in this case the members in the family. Some may be fine with the wage slave/houswife approach while others will decide to take a different appproach. There is no right or wrong way here as long as the family stays the priority. You do need to be a responcible parent-wife-husband but that doesnt mean being a wage slave or a house wife or not doing what you want in life. Good grandparents can be lifesavers when it comes to families and they are worth mentioning to. They can play important roles in the family (sometimes in a bad way to). The one way mentality of yours is what i have a problem with. There are more ways then one to do it right and your assessment of the wage slave/houswife family unit being the only right way to raise a armenian family is just simply wrong and my family is living proof among thousends of other families. Had my parents thought the way you do our family would have been in big trouble when my dad passed away at a early age. My mom was a practicing doctor because my dad encouraged her to persue her career and was able to provide for my sister and i. A housewife in the same situation would be in a great deal of trouble along with her childeren. Having a duel income is a family insurence policy. People raise happy and healthy kids in different kinds of family settings. Being a good parent does not have to mean being a wage slave or a houswife but it can mean that to. What works for one family may not work for another since people are different thus placing needless limitations on people and families is simply insane.

What you're talking about here is no different than what Levon is saying. He's not saying that women should be discouraged from getting an education or persuing a career but while they are doing so, they should keep in mind that at some point they will have to make a sacrifice if they want to raise a family. It's about a 5-10 time span where a lot of attention is needed at home until the kids are off to grade school, and at the age where they can take care of themselves if (raised properly). Also what you're describing depends a lot on the type of careers involved. Most women who persue demanding careers in law or medicine usually can't even think about a family until they are well in their 30's at which time they have to put their career on hold and don't usually get back into the workforce until their 40's.

[Lucin]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I'll simply add again that if there are women capable of maintaining a career and at the same time raising their kids and being a good wife (I consider all of the above as responsibilities) then no one can prevent them from doing/being so.
This however requires a mental/physical health, strength and balance that not all women possess. On the other hand, there are women who stay at home day and night to take care of their kids but have shown to be quite incapable and disqualified for the job. How about them? Shouldn't we rather search for the problem elsewhere?

That's a point of view. Would marrying someone for good looks, intelligence, or personality amount to prostitution as well? I don't think considering money or job status amounts to prostitution as a successful family cannot be built (without a lot of troubles) without resources such as money or a good job, but I don't think these should be the only factors considered.

Yea I call that prostitution and a disguised one at that. At least the real prostitutes have the honesty/courage to show what they are for… and I'm not talking about being with a 'bum… there are many girls today who are not satisfied with a modest income, they simply do not find it attractive … as a consequence the nice, intelligent guy with all the qualities in the world but with a an average earning is being rejected in favour of a rich man with whatever infirmity/disabilities... and the woman goes at any lengths to adapt herself to his lifestyle, his caprices, merely to lead a comfortable life. I know many of these girls, including amongst my own friends and cousins. I can go into more details concerning the games women may play with men on different levels of their relationship.. That's plain disgusting, Kanadahye, are you as a guy defending them, finding it legitimate? May you get one of those women!

So by that you are implying that if a man doesn't do chores for his woman, then he is unable to make himself an omelet? I think not wanting to do chores for a woman (unless necessary) is completely different from being a big baby who is unable to take care of himself.

And I also think that when you said attracted, you meant marriage-material, not lusty attraction.

Vaaay Levon, the omelet thing was just an example. What has it got to do with lust? You wouldn't help your wife to do the chores. Please do so, it is not a pleasant job to do every single day, it's boring.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Without getting much into the rest of the discussion, I just want to point out that quality daycare and babysitters are options as well. Daycare is good because the child can learn social skills through interacting with other children and it helps with the transition to preschool/kindergarten. Also, if the parents, for whatever reason, do not want to put their child in daycare or hire a caretaker, there are often family members who may be able and willing to watch the children. so, really it isn't necessary for the mother to be home during the day. Actually, if there's flexibility in either parents schedules they can offset things so they may not need daycare/sitter or if they do, it would only be for a few hours.

The following are references that found that children who attended daycare were no worse off in their development.

Belsky, J. (1990). Parental and nonparental child care and children's socioemotional development: A decade in review. Hournal of Marriage and the Family, 52 , 885-903.

Chase-Landsdale, P.L. Moffitt, R.A., Lohman, B.J., Cherlin, A.J., Coley, R.L., Pittman, L.D., Roff, J., & Botruba-Drzal, E. (2003). Mothers' transitions from welfare to work and the well-being of preschoolers and adolescents. Science, 299, 1548-1552.

Erel, O., Oberman, Y., & Yirmiya, N. (2000). maternal versus nonmaternal care and seven domains of child development. Psychological Bulletin, 126 , 727-747.

Scarr, S. (1986). Mothercare/other care. New York: Basic Books.

Scarr, S. (1997). Why child care has little impact on most children's development. Current Directions in Psychologica Science, 6, 143- 148.

and the following study also found that working mothers compensate for time away by spending more of their free, "social" time and weekends with their children than do stay at home mothers.

Huston, , A.C., & Aronson, S.R. (2005). Mothers' time with infant and time in employment as predictors of mother-child relationships and children's early development. Child Development, 76, 467-482.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I'll simply add again that if there are women capable of maintaining a career and at the same time raising their kids and being a good wife (I consider all of the above as responsibilities) then no one can prevent them from doing/being so.
This however requires a mental/physical health, strength and balance that not all women possess. On the other hand, there are women who stay at home day and night to take care of their kids but have shown to be quite incapable and disqualified for the job. How about them? Shouldn't we rather search for the problem elsewhere?

The word "tembel" comes to mind... yeah, it's probably Turkish.

Yea I call that prostitution and a disguised one at that. At least the real prostitutes have the honesty/courage to show what they are for… and I'm not talking about being with a 'bum… there are many girls today who are not satisfied with a modest income, they simply do not find it attractive … as a consequence the nice, intelligent guy with all the qualities in the world but with a an average earning is being rejected in favour of a rich man with whatever infirmity/disabilities... and the woman goes at any lengths to adapt herself to his lifestyle, his caprices, merely to lead a comfortable life. I know many of these girls, including amongst my own friends and cousins. I can go into more details concerning the games women may play with men on different levels of their relationship.. That's plain disgusting, Kanadahye, are you as a guy defending them, finding it legitimate? May you get one of those women!

Now what have I ever done to you to deserve your Armenian curse . In regards to you friends/cousins, either they don't realize they too are being played or they have a keen sense of finding dumb men. The former meaning they are only wasting their own time out of their life and the latter meaning they are predatory in nature. Either way, they are pretty much just wasting time, something we don't have much of in life.

Vaaay Levon, the omelet thing was just an example. What has it got to do with lust? You wouldn't help your wife to do the chores. Please do so, it is not a pleasant job to do every single day, it's boring.

An omelet is made with eggs right? What Levon meant was... there are 2 kinds of attraction. The first being physical and the second being logical and you were referring to logical attraction when you brought up the omelet thing. You don't want to be stuck with someone that needs a mother and a wife... why should you bare all the duties because their first mother didn't do their job right in the first place, lol. I see this happening a lot and I don't know why some women are attracted to the lazy types that can't iron a shirt or carry a job and the woman ends up doing both yet somehow she feels empowered Must be some sort of reverse psychology.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.