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  • #71
    Originally posted by bell-the-cat
    And what are you going to do with all those ancestral lands once you miraculously get them back. Are you going to leave your NY apartment and move to some village near Moush or Erzurum?

    Jews from Europe had been returning in substantial numbers to live in Palestine for about 100 years prior to 1947 - it was a political and intellectual decision for them. How many Armenians have moved to eastern Turkey since whatever date you want to mention - not one.


    I dont understand what you are trying to say. Are you suggesting no Armenians have moved to armenia now so what makes you think they will with the addition of new lands? Well if you are implying that let me just remind you that the newly founded state of Israel had numerous of "loans" given to it by not only America but many western countries, not to mention the compensation if gets from Germany now. Let me also state that the nature of your arguement only further proves my hypothesis that as long as armenians argue with eachother, this race is destined for failure. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your statement because the situation between Armenia's liberation from the USSR to an independent state, which is still almost entirely dependent on russia in the economic sector and the energy, is in fact entirely different than that off the founding of the state of israel which was supported and IS STILL supported by major western powers and the united states. Why have no armenians moved to armenia or invested in it, other than the distrust they have for these armenians, can best be explained by the fact that in armenia the standard of living is at best a tid bit compared to that off ethnic jews in israel. I said it once and i say it again, the strength of this race is in its unity, and if that is what you are trying to say I AGREE, but if you are not, then you only exemplify my point.

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    • #72
      Originally posted by o0tinerz0o
      I dont understand what you are trying to say. Are you suggesting no Armenians have moved to armenia now so what makes you think they will with the addition of new lands? Well if you are implying that let me just remind you that the newly founded state of Israel had numerous of "loans" given to it by not only America but many western countries, not to mention the compensation if gets from Germany now. Let me also state that the nature of your arguement only further proves my hypothesis that as long as armenians argue with eachother, this race is destined for failure. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your statement because the situation between Armenia's liberation from the USSR to an independent state, which is still almost entirely dependent on russia in the economic sector and the energy, is in fact entirely different than that off the founding of the state of israel which was supported and IS STILL supported by major western powers and the united states. Why have no armenians moved to armenia or invested in it, other than the distrust they have for these armenians, can best be explained by the fact that in armenia the standard of living is at best a tid bit compared to that off ethnic jews in israel. I said it once and i say it again, the strength of this race is in its unity, and if that is what you are trying to say I AGREE, but if you are not, then you only exemplify my point.
      So let's get this straight - you are expecting other countries to 1. force Turkey to abandon all of its eastern lands. 2. force most of the current inhabitants out of those lands, 3. pay, or force Turkey to pay, a couple of million Armenians enough money to induce them to abandon wherever they are currently living and move to former eastern Turkey. Be realistic! This is not going to happen, ever!!

      As for this "the strength of this race is in its unity" stuff - those sort of words are the sort of things dictators say as an easy way of surpressing any views they disagree with and do not want others to hear. I know that giving racial traits to nations is unPC these days, but it still isn't too wide of the mark to say that the defining characteristic of the Armenian race is its complete lack of unity! And while that charactersitic can have negative aspects, it has many very positive aspects as well, including creativity and individuality - both of which are probably more valuable assets in the modern world than this ala-turka "racial unity" you want Armenia to have.
      Last edited by bell-the-cat; 05-01-2005, 07:11 AM.
      Plenipotentiary meow!

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      • #73
        Originally posted by nairi
        Just give us a village in West Armenia, and see what happens within one generation. Why are you so pessimistic?
        I don't doubt that if Turkey does become an EU member then this sort of thing will become possible in theory. But get down to specifics - who are these "us", and who is going to do the "giving"?
        Plenipotentiary meow!

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        • #74
          Turkey will do the giving, and don't worry about "us".

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          • #75
            Originally posted by bell-the-cat
            So let's get this straight - you are expecting other countries to 1. force Turkey to abandon all of its eastern lands. 2. force most of the current inhabitants out of those lands, 3. pay, or force Turkey to pay, a couple of million Armenians enough money to induce them to abandon wherever they are currently living and move to former eastern Turkey. Be realistic! This is not going to happen, ever!!

            As for this "the strength of this race is in its unity" stuff - those sort of words are the sort of things dictators say as an easy way of surpressing any views they disagree with and do not want others to hear. I know that giving racial traits to nations is unPC these days, but it still isn't too wide of the mark to say that the defining characteristic of the Armenian race is its complete lack of unity! And while that charactersitic can have negative aspects, it has many very positive aspects as well, including creativity and individuality - both of which are probably more valuable assets in the modern world than this ala-turka "racial unity" you want Armenia to have.

            Hold on one moment, on what basis did you develop your 3 points on? I in NO WAY implyed any of those things. I dont agree with any of those points. In fact I expect Armenians to annex their own lands, whether by force or by legals means, either way we will take what is ours. Our main weakness is our LACK OF UNTITY. I exemplify the unity concept because I believe in it with all my heart, because its the very nature of this arguement that strengthens my point. It is what destroyed us and made us to weak to countless invasions over the millenia's, whether it be that the princes of provinces were too far to communicate or some armenians were traitors and turned in other armenians to turkish officials. I dont expect any nation to help us, because there were too many promises mostly from europe, that were never fulfilled. Individuality and creativity? Hmmm so we must be divided as a race in order to creative and be individuals? We must bicker amongst ourselves? Typical typical. I am not here to argue with you, I dont know you and I dont care to get to know you. I obviously dont agree with you and you dont agree with me so I'm just not going to respond anymore.

            Comment


            • #76
              Originally posted by o0tinerz0o
              Our main weakness is our LACK OF UNTITY.
              Is that a quote from Hitler? Consider the history of Armenians - when have we ever had (or valued) "unity"? You speak like a Turk. Armenains have always een independent - that is why we excel at art, liturature, business - things that require creativity - you are calling for us to be something we are not. And for what purpose? For what ends? To take land by force? To perpetuate blood fued? Don't you understand the very many ways your thinking is flawed? - (even if you [perhaps legitimatly] feel it)? I actually have to agree with BtC on this one. Please try to understand what it is to be Armenian - what makes us special - and why we never much were into going out and subjegating others - prefering instead to do our own thing - and how good we have been at such...and also - perhaps you will need to mature a bit before you can understand - but what comes first - caring and providing for ones family or sending our children off to die for some very questionable objectives and ideals?

              Comment


              • #77
                WEST vs EAST

                I understand what you are talking about o0rtinez0o.The problem with us is that we were always divided , always.Hence for that reason we never succeded.
                Its so obvious and you can see it since the ancient times.Its very hypocritical to say that our individuality is the reason that is making us to succed and its making us unique.Thats just nonsense.It just makes it clear that many conservative Armenians still are against our Unity and because of people like them all those horible things happened to us.
                We as a nation were always divided.Our one half was under Greek rule our other was under Persian.Then the one half was going under Roman rule the other half under Parthian.After that again one half is going under Byzantian rule , the other stays independent.In the end the one is going to Cilicia the other half is staying in our homeland under the rule of the Mongols.
                This whole thing about our non unity is the Eastern and Western Armenian division.
                The Westerns dont like the Easterns the Westerns dont like the Easterns.In my opinion this is the reason we are not united and untill we get over this silly
                difrences we will never succed.I am not blaming someone in spesific.It is the fault of all of us.
                What should be done is to at last realise that we are ALL armenians we are ONE NATION.We should stop being so prejudiced with each other.That is what our friend means i beleive and i agree with him.Its just ridiculous to have always 2 communities one for Eastern Armenians and one for Westerns.This thing has to stop.Unity has nothing to do about non creativity or non succesion, that just the excuses of the conservatives.Unity is about us realising that we are ONE nation and that we should not discriminate our OWN countrymen.

                Comment


                • #78
                  Originally posted by o0tinerz0o
                  I dont know you and I dont care to get to know you. I obviously dont agree with you and you dont agree with me so I'm just not going to respond anymore.
                  How very un-unifying of you.
                  Plenipotentiary meow!

                  Comment


                  • #79
                    Originally posted by Red Brigade
                    I understand what you are talking about o0rtinez0o.The problem with us is that we were always divided , always.Hence for that reason we never succeded.
                    Its so obvious and you can see it since the ancient times.Its very hypocritical to say that our individuality is the reason that is making us to succed and its making us unique.Thats just nonsense.It just makes it clear that many conservative Armenians still are against our Unity and because of people like them all those horible things happened to us.
                    We as a nation were always divided.Our one half was under Greek rule our other was under Persian.Then the one half was going under Roman rule the other half under Parthian.After that again one half is going under Byzantian rule , the other stays independent.In the end the one is going to Cilicia the other half is staying in our homeland under the rule of the Mongols.
                    This whole thing about our non unity is the Eastern and Western Armenian division.
                    The Westerns dont like the Easterns the Westerns dont like the Easterns.In my opinion this is the reason we are not united and untill we get over this silly
                    difrences we will never succed.I am not blaming someone in spesific.It is the fault of all of us.
                    What should be done is to at last realise that we are ALL armenians we are ONE NATION.We should stop being so prejudiced with each other.That is what our friend means i beleive and i agree with him.Its just ridiculous to have always 2 communities one for Eastern Armenians and one for Westerns.This thing has to stop.Unity has nothing to do about non creativity or non succesion, that just the excuses of the conservatives.Unity is about us realising that we are ONE nation and that we should not discriminate our OWN countrymen.
                    I think the 'Armenian Slang and Idioms' thread could really use this post!!
                    Anyway, I agree with you... we are not as united as we should be. Eastern Armenians too are categorized into two grops: Hayastansis and Barsgahays!

                    Take the genocide events in LA for example... every group and organization had its own agenda, they all went separate directions, and the results were not too impressive. I mean you would think at least for the 90th anniversary they would put their differences behind right? wrong!

                    Comment


                    • #80
                      Turkey should compensate Armenians if we want to uphold any concept of property rights.
                      Last edited by Anonymouse; 05-03-2005, 05:56 PM.
                      Achkerov kute.

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